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    • Hi all,   Could any of the site team (or experienced site membes) give me any guidance on the above defence .   I need to have it in by Friday at latest, and was hoping to submit tomorrow to make sure that its lodged in good time   Many thanks in advance x 
    • Sorry but sounds like early days if CWD and lately IDR. Been dealing with this since 2009 and still going on as well as those crazy collection agency’s in Dubai also still emailing to this day.    I set up a special email account where I have everything from CWD, IDR and all others so it’s all in one place and the laws that have been broken.  Upon discussions also with R. Sterling at detained in Dubai its also been helpful.    Currently with the FO with my complaints against the attempted collection of debt in the UK when it has not been passed through the correct channels regardless of what is in the T&C.    Personally I would not pay any ting until as people know that debt has been passed through the correct manner of courts in the UAE or indeed purchased by a UK company which then I will be happy to defend given the laws here and whT I have available.    Make sure to ask for everything when the time come all statements, extra charges terms at the time of supposed signing etc !    Listen to the team also 
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Hello good people

 

I hope this is the right thread to post this query...

 

I need assistance as to how to go about filing an appeal against the ET judgment i lost for ''unlawful dismissal''...

..This is an NHS matter

..the judge was bias.

..her written judgement even shows her helping the other side to clarify their case..

 

My question is...

. in a situation where it can be easily be shown and proven that the accusations which led my suspension

and later dismissal was NOT properly investigated

..can a judge still get away with using points of law like

 

(Post Office v Foley and also HSBC v Madden

(Iceland Frozen Foods v Jones

BHS v Burchell case,

 

As reasons for ruling against me?..

.I was under suspension for 6 months and virtually NO investigations was carried out.

 

 

..for exp..the main Charge nurse who leveled the accusation which led to my suspension was not questioned.

.in fact she refused to give further statements.

..persons whom i identified as being involved in the situation were not questioned for 4months.

 

 

..it was only AFTER the appeal which was 7 months later that statements were sought from these people.

...and one of them claimed he was in Australia when i saw on FB that he still living in the UK...

 

 

. I brought these facts up throughout the whole process

... and even in court and judge noted this.

..my Solicitor didn't really do much...

 

there is so much more i can go into.

.but this ET judge's decision and reasoning is the most ridiculous i have ever read...

 

I was fired under capability rule...

 

I dont know how to make heads or tails on this matter as it has been going on for a year.

..i do not want to waste money on consulting a barrister if i am going to get screwed around like my current solicitor did...

 

thank you..

 

This is my first time on here and i will clarify if need be for anyone who can help..

.I am at a loss and i am willing to take this case far as i can..

.as i did nothing wrong

..i was ganged up on an bullied on the job.

.then set up...

 

I am from America and i am not familiar with UK employment laws...

 

If need be..

.i can email the Judges decisions to anyone who wants to read..

Edited by dawnporter

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Hi dawn

 

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Thank you rebel11...i always find stuff out at the '99%'' hour ...wish i new about this forum before going to Court.

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Based on the cases you have quoted, am I right to think that you were accused of doing something which you say you didn't do, but the tribunal said the employer was entitled to dismiss based on its reasonable belief that you engaged in the misconduct?

 

If that is correct, then unfortunately I think you will find it difficult to appeal this. Like in the US, in the UK you can generally only appeal on issues of law (i.e. the judge interpreted or applied the law incorrectly) and not on issues of fact (i.e. the judge believed one witness rather than another). This is primarily because the appeal tribunal generally will not re-examine evidence and will not hear from witnesses again. Whether or not the employer had a reasonable belief that you committed the misconduct you were accused of is a very factual issue.


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Based on the cases you have quoted, am I right to think that you were accused of doing something which you say you didn't do, but the tribunal said the employer was entitled to dismiss based on its reasonable belief that you engaged in the misconduct?

 

If that is correct, then unfortunately I think you will find it difficult to appeal this. Like in the US, in the UK you can generally only appeal on issues of law (i.e. the judge interpreted or applied the law incorrectly) and not on issues of fact (i.e. the judge believed one witness rather than another). This is primarily because the appeal tribunal generally will not re-examine evidence and will not hear from witnesses again. Whether or not the employer had a reasonable belief that you committed the misconduct you were accused of is a very factual issue.

 

I wondered this too, but the OP said they were dismissed for capability, which is confusing!

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Thanks steampowered.

 

I was dismissed for capability based on my attempt to use a cauterization device a charge nurse had instructed another person of the same grade and i to use. My defense was that i am not denying that i did attempt to use this device, but that i was just following instructions based on what the charge nurse told me initially.

 

I had no written record to prove i was instructed to carry out the task by this person.

 

The charge nurse later for whatever reason made a compliant about me to the agency that i was working with...saying i was attempting to use this device without authorization...i was suspended 2 weeks after that...they say i was a danger to patients, yet i was allowed to work on on my regular ward while the concocted their stories...

 

My defense was that the circumstances surrounding my dismissal was not properly investigated..i.e the person who i said trained me to use the device and..who i saw use the same device on many occasions(in front of doctors at the clinic and the charge nurse) was never questioned till 6months after the fact...the charge who made accusations refused to give any more details re: the issue...

 

the judge noted all this but stated she saw nothing wrong with the appeal panel still moving to dismiss.

 

Even though I had to bring these facts up at my suspension appeal, the lack of investigation that is and it was only then did they decide to questions these persons..

 

The persons i named lied and said what they wanted to hear in written statements. I asked the appeal panel to pull patient notes, where they will see the persons who i said said used the same equipment had documented.

 

They pulled the notes..and it took 4weeks but did but 80% of the notes were incomplete..that is NO nursing notes was present and i was not allowed to comment on said notes-i just got the dismissal letter with their evidence...

 

the judge noted the above during my hearing...

 

The person who was picked to investigate my suspension was my manager on the my regular ward whom i had complained to about being followed...who then in turned placed a warning on my file based on some mades up charges just 1week before my suspension regarding the cauterization attempt.

 

some many irregularities....yet somehow the judge felt this case was properly investigated..

 

 

Not letting this go..i will fight as long as I can...the only mistake I made during this whole matter was that i had so much other things going on..i,e homelessness, illness.. during the past year...i did not think to question my solicitor whom i trusted would look out for my best interest regarding this matter...

 

He was so bad...the other side had to email him a day before we started to say they had made an ''error'' in my pay as the fired me 2weeks before i got my dismissal letter...apparently this is against the law... and i didn't know this...even the judge noted this and she said it...but my solicitor did not spot this ....

 

 

 

I am thinking can i go for an appeal based on perverse of the law?

Edited by dawnporter

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"the judge noted all this but stated she saw nothing wrong with the appeal panel still moving to dismiss."

 

no grounds for EAT here. Let go of your anger, move on and live well. It'll eat you alive otherwise.


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That's the thing becky, i thought i was being suspended based on misconduct....but they told me during my appeal hearing for the suspension that i was being disciplined under capability.

 

I mean its not necessarily anger as the NHS paid me free wage for 7months while i sat on my behind...plus they didn't think i would hang on this long....and they paid a barrister and solicitor to defend this case.... and i have another job...i just do not like been railroaded...i am sure there is a way... i will just keep looking... something will come up within these 46 days i am sure of it...

no reasonable judge could have come to the conclusion this judge did...as i said my only mistake is having a bad Solicitor...

 

The thing is.... i will only sacrifice to invest money in consulting a Barrister if it is going to be worth it...not into paying folks for a task and they cant even do the job...i could see if it was legal aid...but i was paying this solicitor and he did a very very poor job at defending this case.

 

Ok so this technicality came up during hearing that my Solicitor didn't really fully explain..apparently the tribunal was missing paper work from the other side...My Solicitor agreed but didn't explain to me what was going on...I am now kicking myself as this could have been a way out for me to have the hearing postposed that day..i wonder is there anything else i can do now...based on what the judge ruled below regarding the missing paperwork.

 

General / Conduct of the Hearing

 

2. The hearing was listed for one day and (as per the order of 23 June 2014) was to deal with the unfair dismissal claim on liability only (but it was agreed that this would include Polkey reduction and contributory fault issues). It was noted that the claimant was seeking reinstatement. A provisional remedies hearing date was agreed with the parties for 19 August 2014 (for 3 hours commencing at 10 am)

 

3. At the commencement of the hearing the Tribunal raised with the parties the fact that there was no record on the Tribunal file of an ET3 having been received from the respondent; nor was there any indication that either the claimant or the Tribunal had raised this with the respondent. Upon the respondent’s solicitors providing a copy of the ET3 and the covering email submitting the response (dated 16 April 2014), it appeared that the old email address for the Tribunal had been used. However, despite the absence of an ET3, no judgment had been issued by the Tribunal determining the issues, under rule 21 (2) of the Tribunal Rules 2013.

 

4. The claimant’s legal advisers acknowledged that they had received a copy of the ET3 direct from the respondent and both parties were ready and able to proceed with the hearing. It was agreed that the Tribunal would accept a late application from the respondent for an extension of time to present the response out of time (rule 20 Tribunal Rules). This extension would be granted allowing the respondent to participate fully in the hearing on 24 June 2014 (rule 21 (3)). This course of action was agreed to by the claimant’s representative, Mr Oliver. The Tribunal noted that to deal with the matter in any other way would not be recognising the imperative of the overriding objective (rule 2) to deal with matters justly but also without delay and saving costs.

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I'm with Emmzzi on this. I can't see any obvious ground of law for appealing this decision. Its possible that a solicitor/barrister might notice something by reading the papers but it sounds very unlikely.

 

The chances of getting legal aid for this are slim to nil.

 

There is nothing you can do about the missing papers now. Even if this was challenged, I think it is extremely unlikely anything would have come of it or that the hearing would have been delayed. It sounds like the issue was that the Tribunal did not receive the ET3, but as you received it then frankly this is a technicality which makes no difference and would not have merited a postponement.


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...i dont even think one can get legal aid for ET anymore...i wouldn't even want to...if i paid a solicitor and he was crap how bad would a legal aid solicitor be?....

 

I dont mind spending 300-400 on a Barrister to look this over just based on the principle...

 

Yea the paper work avenue was a long short...but gotta try to cover all basses when one is playing catch up...i have another job and i have learned alot from the experience...that is trust NO ONE in the NHS and always CYA at all times on the job.

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Ok so this technicality came up during hearing that my Solicitor didn't really fully explain..apparently the tribunal was missing paper work from the other side...My Solicitor agreed but didn't explain to me what was going on...I am now kicking myself as this could have been a way out for me to have the hearing postposed that day..i wonder is there anything else i can do now...based on what the judge ruled below regarding the missing paperwork.

 

General / Conduct of the Hearing

 

2. The hearing was listed for one day and (as per the order of 23 June 2014) was to deal with the unfair dismissal claim on liability only (but it was agreed that this would include Polkey reduction and contributory fault issues). It was noted that the claimant was seeking reinstatement. A provisional remedies hearing date was agreed with the parties for 19 August 2014 (for 3 hours commencing at 10 am)

 

3. At the commencement of the hearing the Tribunal raised with the parties the fact that there was no record on the Tribunal file of an ET3 having been received from the respondent; nor was there any indication that either the claimant or the Tribunal had raised this with the respondent. Upon the respondent’s solicitors providing a copy of the ET3 and the covering email submitting the response (dated 16 April 2014), it appeared that the old email address for the Tribunal had been used. However, despite the absence of an ET3, no judgment had been issued by the Tribunal determining the issues, under rule 21 (2) of the Tribunal Rules 2013.

 

4. The claimant’s legal advisers acknowledged that they had received a copy of the ET3 direct from the respondent and both parties were ready and able to proceed with the hearing. It was agreed that the Tribunal would accept a late application from the respondent for an extension of time to present the response out of time (rule 20 Tribunal Rules). This extension would be granted allowing the respondent to participate fully in the hearing on 24 June 2014 (rule 21 (3)). This course of action was agreed to by the claimant’s representative, Mr Oliver. The Tribunal noted that to deal with the matter in any other way would not be recognising the imperative of the overriding objective (rule 2) to deal with matters justly but also without delay and saving costs.

 

You could appeal on the grounds that the respondent ET3 was not submitted within 28days, and even if an extension of time was permitted, the ET3 still has to go through the process of being accepted by the tribunal.

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You could appeal on the grounds that the respondent ET3 was not submitted within 28days, and even if an extension of time was permitted, the ET3 still has to go through the process of being accepted by the tribunal.

 

Even if the Judge accepted the ET3 on the spot?..I remember her telling the other side to resend the email, and she will grant for the paper work to be accepted. Plus my Solicitor agreed to the Judge's suggestions?...Thank you though... i will do some research and will look more into that angle.

 

 

Human Rights

 

Does any know the average compensation awarded in the UK Courts.. if one was to bring a Human Rigths claim against a Government body..With deffinite proof they violated the convention?

 

i.e Unlawful detainment...

 

I have heard Judges usually award modest sums?

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No, detention under the mental health act. Where it can be proven the social worker filed for the wrong type of mental health warrant, in order to get someone in hospital from a private location. Also Social worker did not follow protocol...person was held in hospital for 7weeks and forced to take medication..

 

Person was not known to services in said area

There is more to the story ...as there is an element of police harrasment too..but as you know law enforcement cover thier tracks well..

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Hi Sorry to butt in late, only read the above briefly, basically you have to appeal to the EAT to appeal the tribunal judgement.[ appeal to appeal]

 

 

You lodge an appeal , it will go thru a `sift` stage when either your appeal will be granted or rejected

 

 

If your appeal is rejected at the `sift` stage worry not as you then have a right to an oral hearing.

 

 

You have to request the oral hearing in writing on the grounds that you are `dissatisfied with the decision made at the `sift` stage`

 

 

In the event of an oral hearing taking place you will have the right to be represented by a Barrister under the ELASS scheme [free representation] who are more competent than the paid lawyers and will find a point of law on your behalf to fight your case.

 

 

First port of call is to get in touch with the appeals tribunal and ask them to send you appeal documents.however you must hurry as there are strict time limits.

 

 

Good luck.

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"the judge noted all this but stated she saw nothing wrong with the appeal panel still moving to dismiss."

 

no grounds for EAT here. Let go of your anger, move on and live well. It'll eat you alive otherwise.

 

 

 

I am in full agreement as regards Quote: `it`ll eat you alive .....`

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Hi Sorry to butt in late, only read the above briefly, basically you have to appeal to the EAT to appeal the tribunal judgement.[ appeal to appeal]

 

 

You lodge an appeal , it will go thru a `sift` stage when either your appeal will be granted or rejected

 

 

If your appeal is rejected at the `sift` stage worry not as you then have a right to an oral hearing.

 

 

You have to request the oral hearing in writing on the grounds that you are `dissatisfied with the decision made at the `sift` stage`

 

 

In the event of an oral hearing taking place you will have the right to be represented by a Barrister under the ELASS scheme [free representation] who are more competent than the paid lawyers and will find a point of law on your behalf to fight your case.

 

 

First port of call is to get in touch with the appeals tribunal and ask them to send you appeal documents.however you must hurry as there are strict time limits.

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

Thank you... will try what you suggested.... it either works or it doesn't........just want to make sure i exhaust all possible options before giving up.. if what you say is really possible.... that is if one can really get to argue their case at an hearing following the steps you laid out.....this means lay persons have found a way to play the same game they play...which is to stall and delay with every opportunity...

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Thank you... will try what you suggested.... it either works or it doesn't........just want to make sure i exhaust all possible options before giving up.. if what you say is really possible.... that is if one can really get to argue their case at an hearing following the steps you laid out.....this means lay persons have found a way to play the same game they play...which is to stall and delay with every opportunity...

 

Trust me it is absolutely possible , been there wore the tee shirt and came out laughing my friend ...best of luck !!

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Hi was this done under s136 of the mental Health Act 1983? read here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/136

 

 

If so then things can be tricky, please have a read if it is relevant to your/their situation please then maybe you can update the thread

 

 

There is also s135 of the same Act as well to consider here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/135


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HI,

 

it was not done under a 136 as those powers are reserved for the police.

 

 

A social worker gained entry into this person's accommodations by showing the housing association manager a 135(1) warrant

-she lied and said it was a police warrant when it was not.

 

 

When i got involved, I filed a complaint with the local police through the IPCC asking why police would serve a 135 warrant

-yet negate to follow proper procedure.

..i.e reserving a copy on file.

..and making sure the address listed was correct..

 

 

. I got a response from them in writing saying they had no part in serving or taking out the 135

(i don't believe them btw..social workers and police in this country go together and work to together like bread and butter)...

 

Then I applied to the Courts to see what this social worker presented to a judge (Justice of the peace)

in order to obtain the warrant.

 

 

It turns out she actually applied for a 135(2) which is for people who have gone AWOL from a hospital hold,

she also submitted NO written evidence to back up her assertion that this person was having a mental breakdown..

 

 

When she showed up to take this person in .

..she presented a 135(1),

which is a social worker warrant with no name and an incorrect address...

 

 

.The story is convoluted, and confusing as it was a trick..

..but suffice it to say this Trust has been caught red handed.

..I just have to file the case....

Edited by dawnporter

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This Social Worker is on very thin ice, did you get to keep a copy of the alleged Warrant?

 

 

It will be important to speak to the person that allowed access to the resident and then allowing them to take control of them without proper authority. You are correct as far as the 135 (2) goes, I would actually ask the issuing Court why and what type of Warrant was issued and for what length of detention it was for, then come back to update again.

 

Depending on which area you live in I would be asking for conformation of issue of the Warrant and by whom it was issued against and why? I would also be asking what evidence was produced to back up the application for the Warrant. It is very important that you find this out ASAP as it could have a significant bearing on your enquiries.

 

Also is it possible to edit your post as it makes it harder to read, you need spaces and paragraphs for it to be read easier.


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I edited the paragraph..

 

135(2) warrants clearly states: ''to retake a Patient', this person was not under any kind of hospital hold on the date she was sectioned- she was in fact in temp accommodations. I helped her file a complaint with Housing Association regarding the manager who allowed access,-they ignored the complaint for months, so i escalated the complaint to the ombudsman. The excuse given pertaining to opening the door without consent from my friend was: ''We were informed the social worker indeed had a police warrant'.

 

However the police stated: ''We had no part in obtaining the warrant, we did not assist the social worker in executing said warrant, we were only there to keep the peace''.

 

LOL...I don't believe them ..but what can you do?

 

The Ombudsman accepted Housing association's explanations and excuses. It took me over 5 months to get the Court Clerk to release the information pertaining to the warrant..I had to go through the ICO. After the ICO contacted the Court clerk -she finally sent my friend a letter with ONLY a copy of the 135(2)- signed by a justice of the peace, with the social worker's assertions that my friend was having a mental breakdown. No other evidence was attached.

 

No record of a 135(1)....Now do you see where I am going?

 

Yes she retained the 135(1) warrant by some miracle for 7weeks. Hospital claims they have lost the original, and hospital staff according to her tried to steal her copy of the 135(1). She was treated very very badly while in hospital. Social worker works for the Trust, so really she is a''small fish''...The ''Big Fish'' is the Trust whom i want to help my friend file a human rights Lawsuit against for unlawful detention, and other violations of the Convention.

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HR infringements are very complex issues and need a very careful eye and an even sharper mind. You have an added advantage as you have a 3rd party in as much as the person that was looking after the vulnerable person at the time of the Warrants execution. You really should pass this on to a specialist in the field of HR infringements.

 

 

I know how you feel atm, you are not alone here, but I would seek professional advice as a matter of urgency before the people involved have chance to possibly make the errors/mistakes go away. The Social Services have a habit of getting things very wrong for some people. As may be in this case, you are to emotionally attached to this case and therefore you will not see what an outsider that is fully trained in this field can see.

 

 

So please as soon as you can get the person that is next of Kin to obtain all medical records as soon as possible, keep them safe then when your team gets involved they too will ask for copies of them. Then you can compare notes together. But I praise you for what you have done so far but this is maybe beyond the norm for someone less well informed.

 

 

If after reading my reply you agree that you are too emotionally attached then you need to do the right thing and pass this on, this is where your team can do what they do best and seek an explanation for you ok.

 

 

Mental health issues are by its definition very complex, as you only have to reads the Act to get how hard it will be to move forward on your own on this matter. What you need to do is collate everything you have done thus far make a 1st gen copy keep it safe then place the entire file in the right hands, if you are permitted to ask for regular updates in regards to what is happening if anything does.

 

 

Please also bear in mind that you may not have the ability or in-depth knowledge you need to pursue this case on your own. You may wish to consider a complaint to the Patient Advice Liaison Service (PALS) department of that hospital if they have one if not do the same to the Trusts own complaints service, but if you are seeking to make a case in Court then seriously you need to pass this on.

 

 

 

 

Ps thanks for the edit much easier to read


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She is an Orthodox Jew whose family turned her back on her, after she divorced her husband, she has no family support or even friends for that matter.

There is an element of police harassment that i have uncovered, but wont go into it on here...Ironically I became friends with her due to having so much time on my hands, after being suspended from my NHS job. Getting a specialist involved isn't as easy as you think..no one that i have contacted wants to take on the case-and we are nearing the year time limit.

 

Even the firms attached to the Mental health solicitors(she was assigned to while being under section) declined to take on the case. I have been told MH Solicitors in this Country do not like ''biting the hand that feeds them''.

 

PALS in this Trust are completely useless, all they do is ignore emails...The Trust has being notified about the warrant discrepancy- we are giving them 14 days to respond.

 

Parliamentary Ombudsman do not take complaints where one is considering going the Civil route...it is either or, according to them.

 

I advised her to file a compliant against the Justice of the Peace who signed the warrant, so if they do go back and try to file retrospective court documents in order to cover their tracks...it would look suspicious, as the Court Clerk sent a copy of the 135(2) warrant and nothing else...

 

 

The deception is deep, and the story is convoluted...and i believe the reluctance most people have of taking on the MHA, is the reason this Trust, its social workers, and CMHT are able to get away with their fake 135 MH warrant racket.

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