Dodgy Oyster fine issued, help please....

[burt999]

In the last hour I gave been issued with a penalty fare notice using my Oyster Card.

 

The officer refused to give me his name, but his badge number is recorded on the ticket.

 

I had topped up my oyster card by £13.00 the night before and used a bus once, believing I had enough to get to and from St Mary Cray to Liverpool Street via a tube from Faringdon, starting at 10.05am.

 

I checked in on the platform (stand alone machine, no barrier) at Faringdon via Liverpool St tube for the last leg of the journey, and as far as I was concerned, it bleeped successfully. The actual machine said £2.30 (£2.40), and I assumed £2.40 was my balance (as I rarely get trains). According to the officer, it would have double bleeped because I was 10p short. The noise on the platform in rush hour at Liverpool Street was excessively loud, and the officer wouldn’t accept that I might not have heard the second bleep (and apparently they don’t keep records of failed check-ins, which I find very hard to believe)

 

I explained to the officer concerned that I’ve had three brain haemorrhages in the last year, and had had major brain surgery in January, which makes me a bit scatty when it comes to figures. Other officers nearby were very sympathetic and were suggesting to the officer that they should leave it and move onto the next station. He insisted on giving me the notice still, rather than allowing me to top up by 10p. His disgust that I didn’t have £20 handy to pay him on the spot was quite abhorrent, and the whole procedure of giving him my name and address was quite humiliating and lengthy, and a potential trigger for my brain problem.

 

I’m quite frankly disgusted at

a) the officer concerned, and his apparent commission grabbing nature regardless of the circumstances, and

b) the procedure where you are assumed to have committed an offence.

 

 

The administration costs of this alone will far outweigh 10p,

and I will fight this all the way to court out of principle, if my health allows.

 

I did not have £20 on me at the time, (about 60p in my pocket)

 

 

Advice please on what I should expect and what I should...

Sorry If this is a bit abrupt, but I'm still livid!

Edited May 12, 2016 by burt999

[dx100uk]

well being livid wont help you.

 

 

await the letter. IF one comes

 

 

dx

[burt999]

I've calmed down a bit now, but raised blood pressure is not a good thing for me. I'd actually had a good day, and this certainly soured it as it ended....

[Stigy]

Hi,

 

Sorry, but I really don't understand why you're so livid.

 

You're saying, as I understand, that the Oyster Card was 10p short and that you didn't hear the double bleep?

That's fair enough, but unfortunately the officer has acted according to Penalty Fare rules.

 

The 10p aspect is an irrelevant figure I'm afraid, as it's the equivalent of not paying anything for the fare

because it didn't register.

 

The Penalty Fare is meant for those who the inspector doesn't believe to be deliberately avoiding their fare,

which is the category you fall in to. They won't be on commission so that won't be a factor.

 

Regarding failed check-ins;

The only 'evidence' as far as this goes is on their handheld device, or through a print-out from TfL

which will be requested should the matter go forward for prosecution.

 

I'm afraid the bottom line is that your card didn't register properly as there were insufficient funds on it.

 

I am still trying to work out where that £13 went to also?

 

I sympathise as it's easy during busy periods at unbarriyred stations, not to hear the tap ins etc.

[burt999]

Thinking about it overnight,

the card would have tapped in correctly at Faringdon,

but wouldn't know where I was getting off,

so would not have double bleeped as the inspector suggested,

 

so noise wouldn't have been a factor and in fact I was probably starting a legal journey according to the machine and from the sound I thought I had heard.

 

As you are probably aware,

if you use an Oystercard for not complex journeys in London,

it tends to deduct parts in chunks up to a maximum of £12.50,

which would be the full 1-6 Travelcard rate.

 

Because I hadn't had the chance to tap out,

I wasn't aware of what the single fare was for the journey from Faringdon to St Mary Cray.

 

It turns out that fare is £3.90 rather than the £3.80 balance I had (with £1.50 overdraft thingy).

 

Now to find out the actual single Oyster fare from Faringdon to St Mary Cray using Oyster is amazingly difficult.

 

If you go to a ticket machine, it automatically defaults to £12.50 for any journey crossing zones.

 

If you look at a fare finder website, the same happens.

 

If you ask at the station ticket office,

they advise you to use an Oyster card as it works out cheaper than buying a Travelcard.

 

I last made this journey in January to actually undertake brain surgery,

and yesterdays trip was to have a brain scan to check that there were no further complications.

 

I was livid at the lack of firstly information as to the fare,

and the lack of discretion applied by the officer,

and the fact that the process took 20-25 minutes,

at a time when it was important for me (for health reasons) to get home and eat.

 

I was naturally livid as raised blood pressure leads to haemorrhaging, and on average a night or two in hospital.

 

If I had been given the opportunity to tap out, the unbarriered machine then would have double bleeped,

and I would have happily put 10p in the machine next to it to correct that.

 

I also know an officer from one of the other London companies who regularly boasts about the amount of commission he's earned from hitting his generated revenue monthly targets.

 

If you really think that such a position is exempt from targets with related bonuses (like the vast majority of businesses) then well that's odd.

 

And to explain the breakdown of the £13 i had topped up the night before:

 

-£1.50 for a bus fare that night.

 

2x£3.90 St Mary Cray to Faringdon and back = £7.80

 

2x£2.40 tube fares to get to Barts = £3.80

 

Therefore total of £11.60 (although the individual train fares on Oyster are impossible to find out beforehand, as stated before)

[*RainbowTears*]

And to explain the breakdown of the £13 i had topped up the night before:

 

-£1.50 for a bus fare that night.

 

2x£3.90 St Mary Cray to Faringdon and back = £7.80

 

2x£2.40 tube fares to get to Barts = £3.80

 

Therefore total of £11.60 (although the individual train fares on Oyster are impossible to find out beforehand, as stated before)

 

 

Morning Burt999,

 

I think you missed out the £1.50 bus fare in your calculations.

 

As £1.50 + £7.80 + £3.80 = £13.10.

 

So with just £13.00 on your Oyster, this explains why you were 10p short on the fare.

 

I do hope your feeling much more calmer & I wish you all the best with your health.

[honeybee13]

2 x £2.40 = £4.80, burt.

 

HB

[*RainbowTears*]

I missed that one HB!

 

So total would've been £14.10 in that case, which doesn't make sense if you were only 10p out.

[mikeymack2002]

Just to add some information here as I have to attend appointments in London for check ups in regards to my brain injury. I do this at Gt. Ormond st. I have to travel nearly 50 miles on public transport. Train tube and bus.

 

I keep my tickets and have my appointment. The person I see will complete a form I got from reception to allow me to reclaim the costs. Have you ever done this yet?

 

Please enquire about this for your next appointment and then you won't be out of pocket. You present you tickets and get a cash refund to coverify the cost of attending your appointment.

 

Just a bit of useless trivalent but very helpful...

 

For further information due to your injury please have a look at the Headway site. This is a support group for those that have had serious head trauma.

 

Also if you want to join have a look at behind the gray http://web.behindthegray.net/index.php?/page/index.html

 

For those that are following this thread please be aware that an injury to the brain such as ours causes us to act irrationally at times and allowances should be made. I have a thread on this as well...

 

I would appeal this charge using your medical situation and inform TFL and if you do you might find the cancel the charge. Please give it a try and up date if successful. ..

[burt999]

 

For those that are following this thread please be aware that an injury to the brain such as ours causes us to act irrationally at times and allowances should be made. I have a thread on this as well...

 

I would appeal this charge using your medical situation and inform TFL and if you do you might find the cancel the charge. Please give it a try and up date if successful. ..

 

 

Thanks all (mostly!). I did realise I had messed up the figures last night, and went back to edit, but unfortunately after the ten minute lock out. With regards to the 10p, it was the officer involved that gave me the figure... I've been trying to back calculate to work it out.

 

I've highlighted the above from mikeymack2002 as its really relevant, and most unaffected people don't get it or understand it. I am in my forties, and I suspect that almost overnight in January the surgery has slightly affected my short term memory, which I'm told will take 1-2 years to return. It's a card I don't enjoy playing, as you just want to return to normality as quickly as possible. (I write history)

 

I will appeal, as while I've read many spurious cases on this site, I do think I got treated poorly.

 

As for claiming expenses, the surgery was NHS funded, but at a Harley St clinic within Barts, and I think I asked in January. The cost is not a killer for me, but a fine would be.

[mikeymack2002]

Some other information for the OP and a link to my other thread see here >> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?460735-Aquired-brain-injury-(the-hidden-disability)

 

burt999

 

 

Although this is about your ability to calculate what you may have on your card it is sometimes the easiest things in the world become the hardest. TFL can and do make decisions to remove a fine under certain circumstances I still recommend that you appeal if you wish. You may have to give up a little medical history and due to our condition they MAY make an allowance especially in your case.

 

 

Secondly it may pay you to read my other thread and watch the linked video, it can be helpful to you and I have also a thread in the benefits sections as well please see here >> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?457126-DLA-Pip-12-point-diary its a sticky at the top of the page.

 

 

I have plenty of useless trivia to give but its just information that has been of use to me and that this too could help others in this position in the future...

 

 

MM

[burt999]

Thanks MM, you've been really helpful.

[mikeymack2002]

burt999

 

 

I have so much information to give and no where to post it in a forum like this. So I am stuck on how to post it grr :/

 

 

Have you watched the video link I gave earlier? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?460735-Aquired-brain-injury-(the-hidden-disability

[burt999]

I've skimmed through pretty much all of it. One thing that is apparent is that I'm a lot better off and fortunate than many that have suffered the same thing, but it still does affect basic cognitive functions and is more or less invisible in conversation, apart from pauses between chunks of words. It's annoying as I was finding life much easier since the sun has come out, but silly little things like this really can sour you for days.

[mikeymack2002]

Although I have given advice and cannot offer much more until you speak to TFL all I can say further is in the meantime have a look here >> https://www.headway.org.uk/supporting-you/i-recently-sustained-a-brain-injury/?gclid=CjwKEAjwmdu5BRCg1O3a-tDY0AQSJACKPgRKeh9BfrQuJSau70iRk_GGIT3Tyxu4bAr7DRwMovPSnRoClaXw_wcB

 

 

I normally unsubscribe when I have given advice but on this occasion I will leave it live for a while just so I can get an update...

[Stigy]

I also know an officer from one of the other London companies who regularly boasts about the amount of commission he's earned from hitting his generated revenue monthly targets. If you really think that such a position is exempt from targets with related bonuses (like the vast majority of businesses) then well that's odd.

I've worked in the rail industry for 10-years for a train operator that serves London and have never known revenue staff to be on commission. Certain train Guards get commission on ticket sales, but not revenue staff. Can't answer for all operators, but I know that's not how it is where I work, and can categorically say it's the same on all other operators that serve our routes.

[burt999]

I've worked in the rail industry for 10-years for a train operator that serves London and have never known revenue staff to be on commission. Certain train Guards get commission on ticket sales, but not revenue staff. Can't answer for all operators, but I know that's not how it is where I work, and can categorically say it's the same on all other operators that serve our routes.

 

It was obvious from your first reply that you are in "the industry", as like the officer concerned, you overlooked certain parts of my initial post.

 

So you are telling me you are paid a flat wage, and not measured on performance in any way? Hmmm...

[Stigy]

It was obvious from your first reply that you are in "the industry", as like the officer concerned, you overlooked certain parts of my initial post.

 

So you are telling me you are paid a flat wage, and not measured on performance in any way? Hmmm...

I'm not part of a revenue protection department, but if I was, the yes, I'd be paid a salary that is non-commission based by my company. That's what you initially mentioned, which is why I won't go in to KPIs. All companies who have a profit to make will have KPIs, but these don't reward staff for performing.

 

I may have overlooked some of your post, however I made it clear that I wasn't 100% sure on what you referred to. I do apologise for not being clearer. I was offering advice and the fact that you seem to berate me for being a railway employee simply because you didn't hear what you wanted, doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't get paid to be here, but will offer advice based on the facts, as will most others here. For the record, you'll likely not receive particularly good advice if 90% of us here weren't 'in the industry'.

[burt999]

There is advice and 'good advice'. I think the initial statement 'Sorry, but I really don't understand why you're so livid.' is indicative of not reading or listening; the inspector did the same.

 

I suspect if i was elderly and scatty, in the same situation, I would not have been put through the same ordeal.

[Stigy]

There is advice and 'good advice'.

As far as I'm personally concerned, there is only good advice, which takes the facts in to account. Of course from other people seeking advice, there is also the "what I want to hear" advice.

 

There are two sides to every story and none of us were present apart from you and the staff concerned. There's also the age old 'attitude test' to take in to account when dealing with members of the travelling public. Sometimes members of staff are abrupt and/or rude, and sometimes members of the public antagonise situations in this way. It's human nature.

 

If you want to take the matter further, which I'm sure you do, appeal the notice and if that fails, as and when the matter goes to court, plead not guilty.

 

I will advise though, and this is advice based on the legalities of the matter. If you do end up in court, pleading not guilty will likely not win you this case. Assuming it's prosecuted under Railway Byelaws (18(1) in your case), you can't really win I'm afraid. You do however have mitigating circumstance, which you can use, by pleading guilty with mitigating circumstances.

 

This is what's known as an offence of strict liability, meaning you either did it or you didn't, and the fact that your Oyster Card didn't have the funds on it for whatever reason and subsequently rejected your journey, is basically travelling without a valid rail ticket, meaning the offence has been committed.

[ultra77]

I've posted a new thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?468811-IRCAS-unfair-penalty-fare-contest

regarding an unfair penalty fare, so was interested to read this.

 

The "attitude test" seems IMO to be an excuse for staff to go on a power trip.

On the occasion that I was personally threatened with arrest and treated like a criminal, the staff seemed to want to humiliate me.

 

Can you recommend and advise the way that members of the public should speak to rail staff in order not to antagonise them?

 

We are the paying customers,

I speak to the staff the same way that I would speak to anyone who is supposed to be providing a service.

 

 

When I am at work, I understand that if I am late with a deadline or make a mistake, people are going to be slightly annoyed.

 

 

It isn't personal, it's annoyance at the situation.

The thing to do is to put the problem right, and try to calm the situation.

 

 

The imposing of a "penalty" fare is reason for someone to become flustered, indignant or whatever,

and unless they let rip at you with a tide of abuse, or are physically threatening, they haven't shown an inappropriate attitude.

 

I've had one staff member say "don't swear at me, Madam" like a schoolteacher when I muttered under my breath at a MACHINE which wasn't accepting my ticket.

 

 

As I didn't require anything from him, wasn't interacting with him, I was able to politely but firmly tell him to mind his own business. He looked disappointed when my ticket finally worked.

 

This "attitude test" is rubbish.

 

 

You're all paid to do a job, the public aren't the enemy, they indirectly pay your wages and are trying to get to work or home. Of course they get upset when things go wrong, the point is, they're not being paid to be there, you are.

[andydd]

Taking your friend to court is actually s different process to issuing a penalty fare, maybe one of our rail experts can fill you in more.