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    • 4 means that they need to name and then tell the people who will be affected that there has been an application made, what the application relates to (specificially "whether it relates to the exercise of the court’s jurisdiction in relation to P’s property and affairs, or P’s personal welfare, or to both) and what this application contains (i.e what order they want made as a result of it) 5 just means that teh court think it is important that the relevant people are notified 7 means that the court need more information to make the application, hence they have then made the order of paragraph 1 which requires the applicant to do more - this means the court can't make a decision with the current information, and need more, hence paragraph one of the order is for the applicant to do more. paragraph 3 of the order gives you the ability to have it set aside, although if it was made in january you are very late. Were you notiifed of the application or not?    
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    • Hi, In my last post I mentioned I had received an email from SS who were asking me to hand over the keys to my mother’s flat so they could pass them to the Law firm who have been appointed court of protection to access, secure and insure my mother’s property.  Feeling this, all quickly getting out of my hands I emailed ss requesting proof of this. I HAVEN’T HEARD BACK FROM SS.  Yesterday, I received an email (with attached court of protection order) from the Law Firm confirming this was correct (please see below a copy of this).  After reading the court of protection order I do have some concerns about it:   (a)   I only found out yesterday, the Law firm had been appointed by the court back in January.  Up until now, I have not received any notification regarding this.  (b)   Section 2   - States I am estranged from my mother.  This is NOT CORRECT    The only reason I stepped back from my mother was to protect myself from the guy (groomer) who had befriended her & was very aggressive towards me & because of my mother’s dementia she had become aggressive also.  I constantly tried to warned SS about this guy's manipulative behaviour towards my mother and his increasing aggressiveness towards me (as mentioned in previous posts).  Each time I was ignored.  Instead, SS encouraged his involvement with my mother – including him in her care plans and mental health assessments.   I was literally pushed out because I feared him and my mother’s increasing aggression towards me. Up until I stepped back, I had always looked after my mother and since her admission to the care home, I visit regularly.   .(c)    Sections -  4, 5 and 7  I am struggling to understand these as I don’t have a legal background.  I was wondering if there is anyone who might be able to explain what they mean.  It’s been a horrendous situation where I had to walk away from my mother at her most vulnerable because of; ss (not helping), scammer and groomer. I have no legal background, nor experience in highly manipulative people or an understanding of how the SS system operates, finding myself isolated, scared and powerless to the point I haven’t collected my personal belongings and items for my mother’s room in the care home.  Sadly, the court has only had heard one version of this story SS’s, and based their decision on that. My mother’s situation and the experience I have gone through could happen to anyone who has a vulnerable parent.    If anyone any thoughts on this much appreciated.  Thank you. ______________________________________________________  (Below is the Court of Protection Order)  COURT OF PROTECTION                                                                                                                                                                                   No xxx  MENTAL CAPACITY ACT 2005 In the matter of Name xxx ORDER Made by  Depty District Judge At xxx Made on xxx Issued on 18 January 2024  WHEREAS  1.     xxx Solicitors, Address xxx  ("Applicant”) has applied for an order under the Mental Capacity Act 2005.  2.     The Court notes (my mother) is said to be estranged from all her three children and only one, (me) has been notified.  3.     (Me) was previously appointed as Atorney for Property and Affairs for (my mother).  The Exhibity NAJ at (date) refers to (me) and all replacement Attorneys are now officially standing down.  4.     Pursuant to Rule 9.10 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 and Practice Direction 9B the Applicant 2must seek to identify at least three persons who are likely to have an interest in being notified that an application has been issues.”  The children of (my mother), and any other appointed attorneys are likely to have an interest in the application, because of the nature of relationship to (my mother).  5.     The Court considers that the notification requirements are an important safeguard for the person in respect of whom an order is sought.  6.     The Court notes that it is said that the local authority no longer has access to (my mother’s) Property.  7.     Further information is required for the Court to determine the application.  IT IS ORDERED THAT  Within 28 days of the issue date this order, the Applicant shall file a form COP24 witness statement confirming that the other children of (my mother) and any replacement attorneys have been notified of the application and shall confirm their name, address, and date upon which those persons were notified.  If the Applicant wishes the Court to dispense with any further notification, they should file a COP9 and COP24 explaining, what steps (if any) have been taken to attempt notification and why notification should be dispensed with.   Pending the determination of the application to appoint a deputy for (my mother), the Applicant is authorised to take such steps as are proportionate and necessary to access, secure and insure the house and property of (my mother).   This order was made without a hearing and without notice.  Any person affected by this order may apply within 21 days of the date on which the order was served to have the order set aside or varied pursuant to Rule 13.4 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 (“the Rules”).  Such application must be made on Form COP9 and in accordance with Part 10 Rules.              
    • Unless I've got an incorrect copy of the relevant regulation: The PCN is only deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch "unless the contrary is proved" in which case date of delivery does matter (not just date of posting) and I would like clarification of the required standard of proof. It seems perhaps this hasn't been tested. Since post is now barcoded for the Post Office's own tracking purposes perhaps there is some way I can get that evidence from the Post Office...
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Property Purchase -Solictors communications with the Estate agent.


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A recent house purchase left me very surprised when I discovered that our conveyancing solicitor was freely giving info about the progress of the sale to the vendors estate agent, including our mortgage status etc. I wondered if any Caggers could let me know what the legal staus of this is?

 

Does the estate agent have any right to our information?

Should the solicitor be freely giving information to the agent?

Shouldn't the solicitor just stick to discussing things with the vendors solicitor?

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A recent house purchase left me very surprised when I discovered that our conveyancing solicitor was freely giving info about the progress of the sale to the vendors estate agent, including our mortgage status etc. I wondered if any Caggers could let me know what the legal staus of this is?

 

Does the estate agent have any right to our information?

Should the solicitor be freely giving information to the agent?

Shouldn't the solicitor just stick to discussing things with the vendors solicitor?

 

What harm / loss have you suffered?

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Nothing other than a perceived invasion of privacy. I don't understand your point? Why do you need to know this?

I just wondered if the estate agent has any right to be involved in the process once solicitors details have been exchanged.

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You will probably find that the estate agent is probably trying to keep everyone in the loop. Also they are probably checking on the progress of your mortgage etc so to try and keep the seller's solicitors in the loop. This happens on every sale/purchase with an estate agent. I cannot see any invasion of privacy. The estate agents are doing their job and for the fees they pay which is sometimes a lot more than the solicitor's fees I think the estate agents should be kept on their toes and be more involved. They also need to know when exchange is and more importantly completion day so keys can be released to the purchaser.

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Nothing other than a perceived invasion of privacy. I don't understand your point? Why do you need to know this?

I just wondered if the estate agent has any right to be involved in the process once solicitors details have been exchanged.

 

Why do I need to know this?

Because you have additional ways to pursue this if you have suffered harm.

 

Mind you, you don't have to answer, but if you don't, or answer with "why do you need to know this" : you'll put people off answering.

Good luck: I'm out.

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ahh I understand now, please accept my apologies, it did seem brusque. In person I would have knotted my eyebrows and asked and I am sure it would have been much more disarming.

I am not seeking remedy against the agent or solicitor. I just wondered if there was any duty of confidentiality or if there are rights to the know about the transaction for any interested party.

My experience with estate agents is that they cannot be trusted, and I don't feel comfortable with them knowing my financial position. Which in this case is what happened, earnings, amount of deposit funds available etc.

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Solicitors owe their clients a strict duty of confidentiality and shouldn't disclose things without their client's consent (https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/handbook/code/part2/rule4/content.page).

 

I think a solicitor instructed to complete a house purchase would have implied consent to speak with estate agents and other involved parties to progress the purchase.

 

It isn't clear to me why the solicitor disclosed financial details to the estate agent. There may have been a good reason but I can't think of one. You can complain to the solicitor and then to the Legal Ombudsman if you aren't happy.

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Thanks so much for your reply. The SRA link and your advice are very useful.

I don't think I would be able to prove anything anyway, so I feel making a complaint would be pointless.

I'm more interested in understanding how to ask any future conveyancing solicitor to be a bit more circumspect about what they tell the estate agent.

I am not really convinced, that once the buyer and vendors solicitors are talking to each other, that the estate agent has any further valuable contribution to make. Other than being informed at the end that the process is complete and that they should hand over the keys.

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On some occasions it can be useful to keep the EA close and in the loop as they have direct contact and the ear of your purchaser...in a way that your Solicitor does not have...(Solicitor to solicitor)

 

Andy

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I have yet to have experience as a vendor, so I value yours, and will remember that in the future.

However in my case as a purchaser of 6 properties I have found EA's to be a royal pain.

Edit - actually I should say on my first purchase the EA was brilliant, transparent and very useful. He did work to get the best price for the client, but there was nothing untoward.

Edited by toys19
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You are probably right that a complaint might not go anywhere.

 

On future transactions, you can specifically instruct the solicitor/conveyancer that you do not want financial information disclosed without your express consent. You will then have a very clear basis for complaining to the regulator if the solicitor/conveyancer does not follow your instructions.

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Can I ask, what info was passed on?

 

If it was " yes they have a mortgage and just waiting for the paperwork" I can't see what the problem is. If it was something like, "they have defaults and are on a low wage" then that's a different thing entirely.

 

Sellers pay a fortune to EAs and its their job to liaise between all parties and find out if the purchaser can afford the house.. Sellers are entitled to know how the sale is progressing and solicitors known this. The question is whether the solicitor passed the fine like be between assisting the purchase and breaching confidentiality.

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Sellers pay a fortune to EAs and its their job to liaise between all parties and find out if the purchaser can afford the house..

I do think estate agents overstep the bounds at times and I can therefore understand the OP's irritation. They'll claim they need all sorts of details because of money laundering regs and I've refused point blank to provide them in the past because the EA plays no part in the transfer of money. It didn't impede the sale. My solicitor is entitled to know where the funds come from and I'd be pretty annoyed if they discussed this with anyone who didn't need to know.

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Can I ask, what info was passed on?

 

If it was " yes they have a mortgage and just waiting for the paperwork" I can't see what the problem is. If it was something like, "they have defaults and are on a low wage" then that's a different thing entirely.

Well as I said the estate agent now knows our wage, contents of bank account etc. Too much.

Sellers pay a fortune to EAs and its their job to liaise between all parties and find out if the purchaser can afford the house.. Sellers are entitled to know how the sale is progressing and solicitors known this. The question is whether the solicitor passed the fine like be between assisting the purchase and breaching confidentiality.

Which the vendor can find out from their solicitor. The EA needs to know very little once solicitors details have been exchanged.

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Which the vendor can find out from their solicitor. The EA needs to know very little once solicitors details have been exchanged.

In my opinion of course...

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Which the vendor can find out from their solicitor. The EA needs to know very little once solicitors details have been exchanged.

 

In my limited experience of two sales recently, the agents have produced more information than the lawyers. In our case, they have been the main source of information.

 

I agree with you about the financial information though, I wouldn't be happy about that. As goodatresearch said, I would expect it to be generic.

 

HB

Edited by honeybee13
Repetition.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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That's really what I meant. Put it this way, I sold a house last year and the buyers dragged their feet. I didn't want sensitive financial info, just wanted to know at what the stage they were at. My solicitor just got " it takes as long as it takes" from the buyers solicitor. In the mean time we were losing out on potential interested parties. I told my EA that I wanted an update that day or they were to start remarketing the property and I would leave their offer on the table. Is it worth losing a house you really want because you don't want the seller to know at what stage your at.

 

 

 

Which the vendor can find out from their solicitor. The EA needs to know very little once solicitors details have been exchanged.

 

In my limited experience of two sales recently, the agents have produced more information than the lawyers. In our case, they have been the main source of information.

 

I agree with you about the financial information though, I wouldn't be happy about that. As goodatresearch said, I would expect it to be generic information.

 

HB

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  • 4 weeks later...

Interesting thread here that covers the same from an agents point of view, although the last post appears to be from a solictor who I think appears to feel the same way I do..

http://www.propertyindustryeye.com/forums/topic/solicitors-dont-you-just-love-them/#post-28610

 

First of all the whinge: employees of agents ringing us wanting to know when their employer’s fee will be paid (so they know when they will get their commission) ie for reasons nothing to do with “keeping the chain informed” and all to do with being paid.

 

There is an ethical issue which Estate Agents either appreciate but wish to ignore or do not appreciate at all.

 

Who is the Solicitor’s client? We are prohibited from discussing our client’s affairs with anyone other than the client unless we have clear instructions from the client (signed, in writing) indicating we can discuss their case with a named third party.

Edited by honeybee13
Cutting down quote from original text.
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