Son's unpaid magistrate's court fine ; bailiff at door & inventory collected

[Surfer01]

If the OP was coerced by the bailiffs into paying the "fine" then surely they can claim this back as the original debt plus 8% statutory interest was not theirs to start with in the first place? For all they know the son could have taken the post as the post would have been addressed to the son and not them. I am sure that by law you cannot open post addressed to someone else?

[Surfer01]

If the above is correct then the bailiff is knowingly committing fraud and can be prosecuted!

[Surfer01]

That does not seem to be the case here as the bailiff seems to have threaten to take goods before establishing whether they had the correct debtor. They then made the OP pay a sum of money when they knew that the OP was not the debtor. To me that is fraud.

[disgruntled2007]

Alternatively, we could simply ensure our fines are paid before letting it get to this stage...

 

It's amazing how the ostrich is never to blame for it's own misfortune.

[Bailiff Advice]

Now I'm getting really worried.

 

Marston could drag this forever until we give up until which time value of bike could go even lower.

 

Not sure but last time I replaced my car key it was £430.

 

We're trying to sell but almost all buyers insisting a spare key. With 1 key, we're getting £500 less than asking.

 

I have been advising you on this subject for the past year and please do pay attention to the advice that I gave you a few days ago (link below).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?463677-magistrate-s-court-fine-bailiff-at-door-amp-inventory-collected&p=5060550&viewfull=1#post5060550

 

There is something else as well that I have only just picked up on:

 

A few days ago, you were looking at claiming £1,000 for 'depreciation' of the bike and another £500 for 'replacement' key. It was only today when reading your above post, that I realise that it was the spare key that the enforcement agent seized and that your son still has another key. I genuinely hadn't noticed this before !!!

 

One other final point, this entire situation arose not because your son failed to pay a court fine but because when notified that a warrant had been issued and passed to an enforcement agent to enforce, payment was made to the court instead of the enforcement company. It was that mistake that led to the visit taking place.

 

PS: When I purchased my car a year ago, it only came with one key. The car was no cheaper because it didn't have a spare key.

[disgruntled2007]

...it was never made clear. The entire thread has alluded to the key in the possession of the bailiffs being the only one.

 

The cod-like odour becomes ever more pungent...

[sgtbush]

Its absolutely amazing how many debtors sell their cars to neighbours /friends/relatives just as the EA turns up.

 

The law is clear on this.

If their is a claim.of 3rd party ownership it I up to the owner to prove ownership not for the EA to establish ownership.

 

So if an EA turns up at the parents house were the debtor lives then yes the EA can make the parents prove ownership.

It would also depend on how cooperative the parents are. If they are being abusive, shouting swearing threating behaviour then the EA will go down to the letter of the law. If they are being cooperative then maybe the EA would only sieze in the debtors room orvehicle etc.

 

In many cases the parents are wiling to settle a debt, especially if its a magistrates court fine as they can escalate eventually to arrest warrants if not paid.

[Surfer01]

Alternatively, we could simply ensure our fines are paid before letting it get to this stage...

 

It's amazing how the ostrich is never to blame for it's own misfortune.

 

The OP is not the debtor.

[disgruntled2007]

The OP is not the debtor.

 

I know. It was a generic comment.

[sgtbush]

The OP is not the debtor.

 

So then the OP should of proved all assets are theirs and the EA could not of taken control of anything and the OP would not be here asking advice.

[Surfer01]

I know. It was a generic comment.

 

Then I agree with you.

[starfarer]

Ok first of all thanks for all the replies. We've decided to follow on the advice provided by BailiffAdvice

but as son is living some 100 miles from us and due to work & other commitments,

finding little hard to organise with the process.

 

 

In short, we'd not yet made complaints with issueing magistrate court and still waiting for answers from the complaint process but expecting to be done by coming week.

 

BailiffAdvice: Yes it's a spare key and no, we made payments to magistrate court after the bailiff's visit.

 

First thing I would like to clear is that we were never in dispute about the fine or fees of bailiff

but how they proceed with it ie letter handed that was printed on previous dates

but agent claiming that she personally hand delivered that letter on the date printed.

 

 

We would even swallow that lie if letter was of final warning kind but it was for collection notice.

So not sure where that ostrich story came from

Edit: oh generic comment

 

Secondly I didn't chose to pay but one day when they came by, unfortunately wife was alone at home and she got scared.

There were 5 men and a woman:shock:

 

 

Agent found just 1 valuable item that belonged to my son which was the bike key in previous visit but in clear words, she did said that all that is inside property will be taken regardless who that belongs to.

This she said in front of 2 community police officers. In simple words, threats were made to take away belongings from address regardless.

 

Thirdly, yes it's just a spare key and may or may not devalue the sale price but definitely not the end of the world.

The question is as a Bailiff co regulated by rules, laws & regulation,

is it not their responsibility to return any items taken on their visit once fully settled?

 

 

Is this process supposed to take forever while they go on their usual trickery?

Numerous phone calls, emails, complaint process, acknowledge mails, rinse & repeat, and still nothing for months now.

 

 

So bailiff can do whatever they like, hold belongings for however long they want without any fines or recpercussion?

disgruntled2007: The cod-like odour becomes ever more pungent...seriously.. ????

 

As no news from Marston since last complaint, only option now is to write to fines manager at court. What if they says that the fine has been settled and nothing to do with them any further?

[Bailiff Advice]

Thank you for updating the forum. I will pop back later this evening to reply to your post.

[starfarer]

Received reply from collectica.

 

I write in response to your correspondence on 6 September 2017. I’m sorry you’ve had reason to complain.

 

I understand you are unhappy as you believe our agent took a motorcycle key from you and since payment has been made, the key has not been returned to you.

 

Having spoken to our agents, neither of the agents who attended your address recall taking a set of keys from your property. I understand that an inventory was taken the first time an agent attended your address, however there is no evidence that a key was taken from your property at this time.

 

In conclusion I believe your account has been handled correctly and that our agents have acted professionally throughout their visits. I can confirm that your account is now paid in full, and no further action will take place regarding account XXXXXXXX in the future.

 

Yours sincerely

[Bailiff Advice]

Thank you for updating the forum with the response.

 

I should imagine that you are disappointed at the reply but frankly, the reply is what I expected.

 

It depends what you wish to do now. My personal opinion, is that you should put this matter 'to bed' and move on. As you have said, the bike key that was taken was the spare key and as such, would not have stopped your son selling his bike and neither would it have led to a lesser sale price being achieved.

[Bailiff Advice]

Received reply from collectica.

 

When you first posted your query (approx 18 months ago) you did say that the spare key had not been included on the Inventory.

 

Given the response from Collectica, you would face an uphill struggle trying to argue that the key had been taken.

[starfarer]

Starfarer. Can you confirm whether the inventory was incorporated on a "Notice after goods have been taken into control" or whether the inventory was an entirely separate document.

 

If the latter is the case, did you receive a notice after goods have been taken into control?

 

Not sure about this as the heading is just "Inventory" & sub headings "About this Notice - The goods listed at the back of this notice belong to you or you and a co-owner and have been taken into control by an enforcement agent. "

 

The 2nd page is "Goods taken into control".

[starfarer]

It depends what you wish to do now. My personal opinion, is that you should put this matter 'to bed' and move on. As you have said, the bike key that was taken was the spare key and as such, would not have stopped your son selling his bike and neither would it have led to a lesser sale price being achieved.

 

Absence of spare key does affect sale of vehicle. Problem now is probably the key that bailiff took away is the ONLY key left as can't find the one at home. Does this changes the situation now?

 

 

When you first posted your query (approx 18 months ago) you did say that the spare key had not been included on the Inventory.

 

Given the response from Collectica, you would face an uphill struggle trying to argue that the key had been taken.

 

?? I re read my 1st post and I did wrote that the key was taken by agent. I had a quick chat with Union's legal rep and he actually got surprised by the Marston's reply despite the signed paperwork. They're willing to take the case but first want to view all the documents.

[Bailiff Advice]

Absence of spare key does affect sale of vehicle. Problem now is probably the key that bailiff took away is the ONLY key left as can't find the one at home. Does this changes the situation now?

 

?? I re read my 1st post and I did wrote that the key was taken by agent. I had a quick chat with Union's legal rep and he actually got surprised by the Marston's reply despite the signed paperwork. They're willing to take the case but first want to view all the documents.

 

In your post from 18 months ago, you did indeed state that the enforcement agent took the spare key...however, you also confirmed that the key did not feature on the Inventory.

 

You have stated as well that your Union's legal representative has expressed an interest in taking this case on. The only person that would be permitted to pursue this matter would be the debtor (in this case, your son).

[starfarer]

Yes my membership covers for family but the firm will have full authorisation to chase the case ( I think it's what they said with few forms to sign). First I'll need to hand over all the documents including the ad that was posted which luckily I can print from ebay, gumtree & autotrader. Only concern is it's the 3rd party firm referred by Union and not sure if we're comfortable with some private information. But we've no other option with no key at the moment.

 

Edit: still waiting for reply from magistrate court.

[Peterbard]

b

Starfarer.

 

After entering your premises, the enforcement agent was required to leave a Notice after entry. If your son was not there, the notice should have been left the notice in a conspicuous place for him, pursuant to Paragraph 28(5) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement act 2007.

 

If no notice was left, then the bailiff has breached legislation and was technically not even in a position to take control of goods. That is the first thing that you need to challenge Collectica on and if they cannot confirm that a notice was left, then the account has been handled anything but correctly.

 

Secondly, you need to ask if a notice after taking control of goods was issued and if not, why was an inventory left?

 

They say they did not take anything.

 

Please do not mislead the OP into thinking there is any viable action here. There is nothing.

 

At most a statutory breach but with no damages, a waste of time and money.

[Bailiff Advice]

Absence of spare key does affect sale of vehicle. Problem now is probably the key that bailiff took away is the ONLY key left as can't find the one at home. Does this changes the situation now?

 

A year and a half ago (May 2016), you posted about a bailiff visit for your son. You stated that a spare key to your sons’s motorbike had been taken. This was despite the fact that the Inventory left did not state a ‘spare key’ had been taken.

 

A few weeks ago, you returned to the forum and stated that in September 2016, another bailiff visit had taken place and that your wife had paid a debt in full (whether this was the same debt from May 2016 or not, we don't know. Suffice to say, that account was closed.

 

When you returned back to the forum a couple of weeks ago, you wanted advice on whether you had grounds to make a court claim in respect of the suspected removal of the 'spare key' 18 months earlier. The amount of the County Court Small Claims action was as follows:

 

a) Bailiff not following correct procedure ( inventory collected should've returned once paid) - £3000

b) Depreciation of vehicle (30% in a year) - £1000

c) cost of replacement key - £500

d) Tribunal fee - £150

 

Total: £4650

 

Thankfully you heeded the advice given by me and others and realised that you did not have grounds for such a claim. Despite this, you are still adamant that you have grounds for making a claim for £500 for a 'replacement' key. This is despite the following comment from you:

 

Yes it's just a spare key and may or may not devalue the sale price but definitely not the end of the world.

 

One poster questioned whether you had obtained an estimate for a replacement key. You have never responded.

 

You have now had a response back from Collectica and they are stating that a 'spare key' was not taken. The Inventory confirms the same.

 

You are now saying that the bike cannot be sold....because you have mislaid the original key.

[Bailiff Advice]

Starfarer.

 

After entering your premises, the enforcement agent was required to leave a Notice after entry. If your son was not there, the notice should have been left the notice in a conspicuous place for him, pursuant to Paragraph 28(5) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement act 2007.

 

If no notice was left, then the bailiff has breached legislation and was technically not even in a position to take control of goods. That is the first thing that you need to challenge Collectica on and if they cannot confirm that a notice was left, then the account has been handled anything but correctly.

 

Secondly, you need to ask if a notice after taking control of goods was issued and if not, why was an inventory left?

 

This is an account that was paid and closed almost a year and a half ago. The only query is that the debtor's father thinks that at the time of the visit, an enforcement agent seized a spare key to his son's motorbike. The Inventory did not make mention of a 'spare key'.

 

The son left the property and left the bike behind. It had a dead battery etc and the OP (the debtors father wanted to sell it). He had the main key for the bike but claims that he was offered £500 less because there was no spare key.

 

You appear to now want to lead the father into believing that 'the bailiff had breached legislation' because he may have used the wrong form 18 months ago !!!! It would not matter in the slightest whether the forms were correct or not. No goods were actually taken. The registration number of the bike was recorded. That was all. The mother paid the debt in full in September 2016.

[starfarer]

This is an account that was paid and closed almost a year and a half ago. The only query is that the debtor's father thinks that at the time of the visit, an enforcement agent seized a spare key to his son's motorbike. The Inventory did not make mention of a 'spare me".

 

No goods were actually taken. The registration number of the bike was recorded. That was all. The mother paid the debt in full in September 2016.

 

What I don't understand why you keep on insisting that the key was not taken. I've inventory list for goods taken issued by agent and it list 1x bike key reg XX12 XXX. Will upload copy later in evening.

 

Thought my posts were clear.

[starfarer]

Admin please!

 

It is all very well to let my stalker follow me around the discussion threads but this thread has been started by someone who is seeking help regarding the loss of a key.

 

It clearly is not a waste of time for the OP, otherwise (s)he wouldn't have returned.

 

Nobody has promised the OP the world and nobody has suggested that any money should be invested in pursuing this matter. My stalker just added these silly suggestions to add value to his attempts to flame.

 

If the OP wishes to pursue it, I am more than happy to help in any way that I can.

 

Hi,yes definitely would like to pursue further. Will upload copy of documents later and don't think any other notices were issued. The key was taken in presence of 2 police officers. I'll try to contact police department to see if they can provide with more details. Think I've still got police ref no somewhere and they definitely should have noted down details of the call.