Thameslink - in 1st class - court date arrived - advise on an out of court settlement

[Njonesy]

I have just received a court summons with three options and need a little advise on how to act.

 

On the morning in question I was in a carriage on the Thameslink service from Bedford to Brighton along with 7 people and two kids.

 

We were asked to provide tickets by an inspector which I did so.

The inspector took my rail wallet which included my work ID to access my building and previously purchased tickets.

I asked for my wallet back to which he refused.

 

He talked to two other passengers before speaking with me and ignored a woman and two kids opposite which I thought was strange.

 

He then asked for my name and address.

I questioned this to which he replied that I was in first class.

I said I wasn't aware I was and asked for my wallet back.

 

He refused to which I asked if we could resolve the matter at St Pancras as I was very embarrassed and still wasn't sure he was correct. He agreed.

 

When i arrived at St Pancras I waited with an assistant and explained what had happened.

After two calls and a search of the platform it was clear the inspector never exited the train.

 

I waited 45 minutes while various members of staff tried to contact the inspector but all failed.

I then was cautioned at work for failing to provide my ID that morning.

 

I returned that evening to be told that no one could help and was best if I go to Luton to speak to the shift manager.

I was given a free pass to get me there.

 

Once there I was advised to purchase another season ticket and given an address to write to in order to receive my work ID and train tickets.

 

He also informed me that he had spoken to the member of staff and that he thought I was getting off at Farringdon.

My belongings were returned by kings cross prosecution department two weeks later.

 

The inspectors statement says I walked away from him.

This is not true.

He also states that he was asked to meet at city Thameslnk.

This is not true.

 

What am I to do?

 

Any advice would be welcome. I know its a bit long winded but I will seek legal advise if all else fails.

 

Thanks for all your help in advance.

[dx100uk]

and the three options are?

 

 

dx

[Njonesy]

and the three options are?

 

 

dx

i accept the evidence contained in the statement and please guilty.

 

 

One option to attend court and the other to not attend court.

 

 

The third option to plead not guilty and await on another day to be summons.

[dx100uk]

then you write the begging letter now and try and get an out of court settlement.

are you ok with what to put?

lots of threads here to help already

keep it brief and SIMPLE mind

no war and peace

or any accusations of their wrong doing.

[Njonesy]

then you write the begging letter now and try and get an out of court settlement.

are you ok with what to put?

lots of threads here to help already

keep it brief and SIMPLE mind

no war and peace

or any accusations of their wrong doing.

I don't care what needs to be done so long as I am not paying any money. Who decides on the out of court settlement?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

The train operating company's prosecutions can decide to allow you to reach an 'administrative settlement' that will stop any court case.

 

It's going to cost you money though, unless you can prove them wrong. If you didn't have a first class ticket, I think that would be difficult.

 

HB

[Njonesy]

Thank you. It seems that if I am going to be out of pocket anyway I might as well fight it in court. I do honestly believe that the inspector failed to do his job properly on this occasion if I was in fact sitting in first class.

[BazzaS]

Thank you. It seems that if I am going to be out of pocket anyway I might as well fight it in court. I do honestly believe that the inspector failed to do his job properly on this occasion if I was in fact sitting in first class.

 

Which will be irrelevant to the court.

The court will decide if you are guilty beyond reasonable doubt of the offence which you are charged with. If the inspector didn't act against others, had his jacket on back to front, or is an alien from Mars is irrelevant.

 

What is relevant is if the court believes the evidence they give.

You say " this occasion if I was in fact sitting in first class."

Are you now saying you weren't sitting in first class?

 

Previously you noted "I questioned this to which he replied that I was in first class. I said I wasn't aware I was"

 

Surely, if you weren't in first class rather than "hadn't realised you were, but were" : your reply wouldn't have been "not aware I was" but instead "No, I'm not".

 

You'll also struggle to say you weren't aware of standard and 1st class if you are a regular traveller ..... Like a season ticket holder.

 

Trying to fib or trying to blame the on train staff rarely goes well.

The prosecutor will have seen it all before and (see example above of how an inconsistency from what you've previously said makes the house of cards collapse) will know how to catch you out if you try it on.

[BazzaS]

Additionally, if you can persuade them to offer an administrative settlement : you can't get a criminal record.

 

If you go to court and are found guilty : you'll have a criminal record.

 

If you do decide to go down the route of seeking an administrative settlement :

 

What charge are they pursuing? Bylaw (which?) or RRA 1889 (which section)

 

Did they write to you previously? If so:

Did you reply? And if so, what did you say? (Blaming the train staff or excuses that aren't believable rarely go well).

 

If you want to try for an administrative settlement you'll need to adjust your attitude : they are under no obligation to offer an alternative to court.

[Njonesy]

I think that advise has left me to admit I am guilty and to pay the fine. Its a shame that so many people are caught out regardless of the situation. Thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

[BazzaS]

I think that advise has left me to admit I am guilty and to pay the fine. Its a shame that so many people are caught out regardless of the situation. Thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

 

No harm in trying for the administrative settlement

If you succeed : no criminal record

If you don't : plead guilty before court and you are no worse off.

[Njonesy]

So it seems I have to admit I am guilty and face the consequences. If i am honest it burns my soul to do this but based on the advise given in the forum its the right thing to do as it seems that no one has found a way of beating the system.

 

I need tips on how I am to structure my response which will get me the lowest fine possible.

 

If anyone can help that would be great.

[BazzaS]

Ask the mods to merge this with your previous thread or give more details : lots of people won't know the background.

 

Plead not guilty if you really aren't guilty : no one should plead guilty merely out of expediency - were you in 1st class without a 1st class ticket?

[Njonesy]

when I asked for evidence of this i simply got a court date letter giving me the option to plead guilty or not guilty. Sorry I am not sure what the mods are? I am a novice.

[AndyOrch]

Threads merged...please keep to one thread per issue.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BazzaS]

when I asked for evidence of this i simply got a court date letter giving me the option to plead guilty or not guilty. Sorry I am not sure what the mods are? I am a novice.

 

I suspect the court letter might include what offence they are asking for a plea for .......

 

Who did you ask for evidence? The TOC?. For a magistrates court case (which this would be), they don't have to give you the evidence in advance.

What evidence do you want? That you were in 1st class? Do you dispute that?

The train staff's report is their evidence ..... Which you have seen.

[Njonesy]

I suspect the court letter might include what offence they are asking for a plea for .......

 

Who did you ask for evidence? The TOC?. For a magistrates court case (which this would be), they don't have to give you the evidence in advance.

What evidence do you want? That you were in 1st class? Do you dispute that?

The train staff's report is their evidence ..... Which you have seen.

i didn't think a verbal accusation was enough. I wanted evidence to support his claim. His accounts are also inaccurate on the statement he has provided.

[BazzaS]

i didn't think a verbal accusation was enough. I wanted evidence to support his claim. His accounts are also inaccurate on the statement he has provided.

 

Were you in 1st class?. The on-train member of staff says you were, so unless you say you definitely weren't (where the court will weigh the 2 contradictory pieces of stated evidence), that is sufficient.

 

What more do you want? A 2nd member of staff??

If one isn't enough, and you want 2 : why stop there??? Why not 3?

And so on .....

 

It isn't a "verbal accusation" : he has submitted a report.

 

Although you have side-stepped my earlier query regarding this, I wouldn't be surprised if you had been sent a letter stating that a report had been made, and offering you a chance to give your side of the story. Were you?.

 

My impression is that you know you were caught, and are looking for a procedural impropriety that will get you off the hook.

By all means go for it if there is one: but if you are pinning your hopes on this - it may mean you loose the chance of an administrative settlement.

 

How concerned are you about the effects of having a criminal record?

If you really aren't bothered then I can see why you aren't focusing on the alternative to court.

[Njonesy]

Yes i had been sent a letter making me aware of the report to which I did not admit or deny what was written.

 

 

I simply requested proof that I was in first class because I was unaware I was.

 

 

An employee submitting a report may deem someone guilty in your mind but it doesn't in mine.

 

 

Ideally I wanted further proof that on the morning there was sufficient notification that the train I boarded provided a first class service and that it was active.

 

 

Some services declassify because of heavy congestion.

Is there CCTV ?

Is that too much to ask?

[dx100uk]

so back to post 4 then.

grovel time

[BazzaS]

Yes i had been sent a letter making me aware of the report to which I did not admit or deny what was written.

 

I simply requested proof that I was in first class because I was unaware I was.

 

An employee submitting a report may deem someone guilty in your mind but it doesn't in mine.

 

Ideally I wanted further proof that on the morning there was sufficient notification that the train I boarded provided a first class service and that it was active.

 

Some services declassify because of heavy congestion.

Is there CCTV ?

Is that too much to ask?

 

Oh dear.

 

You are a season ticket holder, but can't recognise first class, even when you would be prompted to check by the on train staff saying "you are in First class without a first class ticket, and I'm taking your details to report you."

You may have credence issues in court if you claim you are still unsure.

 

" An employee submitting a report may deem someone guilty in your mind but it doesn't in mine. "

Well, only the court can find you guilty,

but I doubt they'd struggle to do so from the information you've posted.

 

 

You say you want evidence but don't seem to want to accept that the on train staff will state so in court,

and you haven't yet said that you weren't in first class,

just that you are mystically unsure and want more proof .....

 

As for "Some services declassify because of heavy congestion.

Is there CCTV ?

Is that too much to ask?"

 

Still looking for loopholes?

 

Yes, some services declassify. Yes, that would be a defence.

 

Funny though,

you haven't said "I know it was declassified because ......",

and you likely would have mentioned this at the time,

or when they wrote to you, or on the thread were it so, rather than you looking for a loophole.

 

 

Unless you know it is declassified you can't nip into first class on the off chance

(or rather, yes you can, but you run the risk of the on train staff coming along,

taking your details and reporting you if you don't have a first class ticket

and it hasn't been declassified).

 

CCTV?

Well, it'd add to the weight of evidence against you, but unless you want to plead not guilty, it isn't needed.

If you want to stand up in court and plead not guilty, saying :

 

"I wasn't in first class",

or "I was in what looked like first class but I KNOW it was declassified, because .....",

or

,

then CCTV might help settle the first issue,

 

 

but won't make a difference for the later 2, and even then,

if there is no CCTV it'll come down to who is the more credible witness,

and (from your postings here) : I'm not gambling on you.

 

An administrative settlement is very unlikely without you admitting guilt.

If you want to say : the TOC need to prove my guilt- plead not guilty, but they likely will do so, in court.

[Old-CodJA]

I have read through this thread and have to say that, from the alleged interaction described here, I cannot see any likelihood of the OP avoiding a conviction in this case unless they are very fortunate in persuading the TOC to allow an administrative resolution

 

Standard class season ticket holders are advised in the T&Cs that the ticket is never valid in First Class accommodation unless a first class supplement is paid before travelling, or when any first accommodation is formally declassified and therefore is indicated to be standard class.

 

The OP may choose to contest the evidence put by the inspector's statement and that inspector will then be called to give live evidence at trial.

 

If unsuccessful in that challenge the penalty for the defendant is normally a much higher fine as a result of being found guilty through trial and having forfeited the right to any reduction that an early guilty plea would have attracted