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    • So today I received two claim forms. Interesting how tm legal are keen to rush into this as they didn't respond to my paploc response and my requests for all the information including cca agreement etc. Guess they probably lost this in the pile and think this will result in a backdoor ccj
    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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£100 lost by not attending ESA appointment


aberdeenlad
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Been going to Triage for nearly 2 years now, and I am in the work related group. Used to have to attend weekly and fortnightly sessions with other people till they put me onto monthly sessions quite some time ago, as they said they feel that I am not ready for work. So now I attend once a month, and it's a 1 to 1 with an adviser instead of a group. But, I was kept on the same ESA and not put into the support group.

 

3 weeks ago I had an appointment. It was scheduled for 10am. However, I was feeling ill the night before and didn't fall a sleep till around about 6.30am. I work up about 10.30am, and I immediately contacted Triage. They told me they would have to inform the Social that I had not attended my appointment. This is the 1st time, I have ever missed an appointment.

 

Triage rescheduled my appointment for 2 weeks later, which I attended last week. They then said they wanted a quick chat with me yesterday, so I attended that too. So have had 2 appointments, and attended both since missing the one 3 weeks back.

 

Received a letter from the DWP today saying that my ESA, has been stopped, till I start re attending my Triage appointments. I phone the DWP and told them that I have actually had 2 appointments, and been to both since missing that original appointment. he woman said that, they have had no word from Triage (I phoned Triage after the call and they said that had informed the DWP, but will call me later to see whats happening, to be honest, Triage probably hasn't informed the DWP, as they are not well organized)

 

Anyway, the woman (at the DWP) told me that my payments will restart once they receive word. I said, so have I lost money? She said "Yeah, it's just a weeks payment so far" Just a weeks payment???

 

I am due Monday (always been paid on Saturday though) Starting to worry I won't even be paid if they haven't been informed from Triage that I have attended since missing the original appointment. But even if I do receive payment, they will deduct a weeks ESA from me for missing that 1 appointment. The first time I have ever done that, not by my own fault, and I phoned when I woke up. But they feel that's acceptable to take over £100 away because of this.

 

Do they have the right to do that to me?

 

P.S Just received a follow up call from the DWP, and the woman told me they have every right to take away 1 weeks benefit from me. I said well personally, that's crazy taking away £100 for missing an appointment. She said well, just like everybody else, if we miss appointments we lose money too by charges etc I didn't say this as it didn't cross my mind during the call but, who the hell would lose a weeks money by not attending a doctors, dentist, etc appointment?

 

She finished off by saying, you only have to do minimum tasks such as attending once a month appointments, and you failed to do that.

 

What a rude woman.

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Been going to Triage for nearly 2 years now, and I am in the work related group. Used to have to attend weekly and fortnightly sessions with other people till they put me onto monthly sessions quite some time ago, as they said they feel that I am not ready for work. So now I attend once a month, and it's a 1 to 1 with an adviser instead of a group. But, I was kept on the same ESA and not put into the support group.

 

3 weeks ago I had an appointment. It was scheduled for 10am. However, I was feeling ill the night before and didn't fall a sleep till around about 6.30am. I work up about 10.30am, and I immediately contacted Triage. They told me they would have to inform the Social that I had not attended my appointment. This is the 1st time, I have ever missed an appointment.

 

Triage rescheduled my appointment for 2 weeks later, which I attended last week. They then said they wanted a quick chat with me yesterday, so I attended that too. So have had 2 appointments, and attended both since missing the one 3 weeks back.

 

Received a letter from the DWP today saying that my ESA, has been stopped, till I start re attending my Triage appointments. I phone the DWP and told them that I have actually had 2 appointments, and been to both since missing that original appointment. he woman said that, they have had no word from Triage (I phoned Triage after the call and they said that had informed the DWP, but will call me later to see whats happening, to be honest, Triage probably hasn't informed the DWP, as they are not well organized)

 

Anyway, the woman (at the DWP) told me that my payments will restart once they receive word. I said, so have I lost money? She said "Yeah, it's just a weeks payment so far" Just a weeks payment???

 

I am due Monday (always been paid on Saturday though) Starting to worry I won't even be paid if they haven't been informed from Triage that I have attended since missing the original appointment. But even if I do receive payment, they will deduct a weeks ESA from me for missing that 1 appointment. The first time I have ever done that, not by my own fault, and I phoned when I woke up. But they feel that's acceptable to take over £100 away because of this.

 

Do they have the right to do that to me?

 

P.S Just received a follow up call from the DWP, and the woman told me they have every right to take away 1 weeks benefit from me. I said well personally, that's crazy taking away £100 for missing an appointment. She said well, just like everybody else, if we miss appointments we lose money too by charges etc I didn't say this as it didn't cross my mind during the call but, who the hell would lose a weeks money by not attending a doctors, dentist, etc appointment?

 

She finished off by saying, you only have to do minimum tasks such as attending once a month appointments, and you failed to do that.

 

What a rude woman.

 

I'm not familiar with triage but are they Triage agency in Scotland? and you are in the work focussed' group

 

Not sure how things vary between ESA WRAG Vs WFG I take it that attending this Triage outfit's offices is Mandatory ? Even if this is the case you should be allowed to be too sick to attend a few times in a 12mth period like if you claim JSA ?? If this withheld payment is a sanction , you should be able to ask for a decision maker to reconsider this decision (Mandatory Reconsideration), and possibly appeal to a tribunal if they don't agree to pay you,

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I'm not familiar with triage but are they Triage agency in Scotland? and you are in the work focussed' group

 

Not sure how things vary between ESA WRAG Vs WFG I take it that attending this Triage outfit's offices is Mandatory ? Even if this is the case you should be allowed to be too sick to attend a few times in a 12mth period like if you claim JSA ?? If this withheld payment is a sanction , you should be able to ask for a decision maker to reconsider this decision (Mandatory Reconsideration), and possibly appeal to a tribunal if they don't agree to pay you,

 

Thanks for your reply. To be honest, I have never heard of ESA wfg. Only ESA WRAg, and ESA support. Yes, they say the triage appointments are mandatory. She rude woman that phoned me back, did say something about a sanction. I will appeal this if I am able to. Thanks

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yes appeal I don't understand if your on ESA even attending once a month is much ie on jsa sign on is fortnightly for ppl fit for work have you thought of appealing to be placed in the support group remember its a risk as they could take it all away plus why would they cut your cash

 

 

for how long have you been placed in the WRAG group?

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yes appeal I don't understand if your on ESA even attending once a month is much ie on jsa sign on is fortnightly for ppl fit for work have you thought of appealing to be placed in the support group remember its a risk as they could take it all away plus why would they cut your cash

 

 

for how long have you been placed in the WRAG group?

 

Thanks for your reply. I was originally on Incapacity benefit back in 2008 till about 2012. It changed to ESA, and I attended a medical. But like many other people, I was awarded 0 points. I appealed it, and after about 2 years (2014), I won the appeal. I was placed into the work group. I was going to appeal but I was told by a few people, there is a chance they might even take me out the work groups and I would lose my ESA. As you have mentioned. I really didn't want to risk that, and didn't want to go through another 2 years of appeals.

 

Just checked my bank, and I did indeed receive my ESA benefit. However, it/s worse than I expected. Instead of the usual £204, I received £3.10. Next 2 weeks will be a struggle. 22p a day. Already lost 2 weeks benefit, apart from the £3.10 they paid me. No idea how they worked out the whole £3.10? £1.55 a week.

 

I have no idea how to appeal this :(

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Thanks for your reply. I was originally on Incapacity benefit back in 2008 till about 2012. It changed to ESA, and I attended a medical. But like many other people, I was awarded 0 points. I appealed it, and after about 2 years (2014), I won the appeal. I was placed into the work group. I was going to appeal but I was told by a few people, there is a chance they might even take me out the work groups and I would lose my ESA. As you have mentioned. I really didn't want to risk that, and didn't want to go through another 2 years of appeals.

 

Just checked my bank, and I did indeed receive my ESA benefit. However, it/s worse than I expected. Instead of the usual £204, I received £3.10. Next 2 weeks will be a struggle. 22p a day. Already lost 2 weeks benefit, apart from the £3.10 they paid me. No idea how they worked out the whole £3.10? £1.55 a week.

 

I have no idea how to appeal this :(

If you have been sanctioned , you have 1 month to request a mandatory reconsideration ,submitting any additional evidence that supports your reasons for failing to attend, During a sanction period you can claim hardship payments from the DWP ,
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wanted to ask aberdeenlad while on WRAG how often did you have to attend Triage you said for 2 yrs every week/2weeks then monthly but when in after being placed in the WRAG group did the attending Triage actually start and you said it was mandatory I thought it was NOT mandatory especially looking at the frequency you had to attend but I may be wrong personally again as Tommy mentioned if you were ill that should of been taken into account your on ESA not JSA where you can have upto 2 periods of sickness in a year and you can also get EPS upto 13 weeks so where's the logic that you cant be sick unexpectedly on ESA seeing its exactly a sickness benefit?

 

other than that please follow what tommy said above if you so wish

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Right 1st off dates are important!

 

You have 1 month from the date on the decision letter to ask for a mandatory reconsideration.(You can lodge a late mandy up to 13 months after that but it's better to stick to a month)

 

You will most likely have to take this all the way to appeal so be prepared.

 

You might be able to claim hardship payments which is 60% of the personal allowance rate.

 

Read these

 

Hardship

 

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/ask-cpag-online-can-you-claim-hardship-payment-jsa-or-esa

 

Sanctions/Hardship/Lenghts/How to Appeal

 

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/sanctions

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-sanctions/

 

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/ask-cpag-online-how-can-you-avoid-esa-‘work-related-activity’-sanction

 

Being ill should be a good reason enough but this is the DWP here so generally I'd expect you to have to Appeal to the Tribunal after the Mandy process is over.

 

Note Triange notify the DWP of things but it is the DWP who make the decision. So there's little point engaging with Triange about the sanction as is but there failure to notify of you complience i.e. when you next attended after the missed appointment that's a different storey

 

If you feel like Triange are playing silly buggers about informing the DWP raise an official complaint with both Trainge and the DWP. Can't find a complaints procedure or any link of how to raise one on their site so...... can anybody else find this out?

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