Selfish Uncaring Doctors back on strike

[sillygirl1]

It really depends on how deep you are able to look into the system. I was able to go back to peoples start dates and check each individual shift with them and point out which pay packet that shift ended up in - in some cases this took all afternoon, inlcuding logging the findings on the system just in case they tried to bring it up again.

 

I can see where you are coming from but I still maintain that the junior doctors are being led astray.

[sillygirl1]

I am replying to the post because I did not say that people were at work for 48 hours a week - they ARE if you add in all the time and a half payments.

 

Doctors are not the only ones working shift patterns - how about the people who work on London Underground doing signals work throughout the day and night - and plenty of other groups of workers doing shift work.

[goodatresearch]

You specifically said normal shift pattern which it isn't. Normal shift pattern is 37.5 hours plus lunch break.Time and a half is enhanced payment for unsocial hours within the 37.5 working week. If more than 37.5 hours is worked its overtime or the person is working in on the NHS bank. Not the same thing is it?

 

Yes other people work shift patterns, but so what? Before my husband took redundancy he worked shifts in a factory and he was on a damned sight more than a junior doctors starting salary or the £27,000 quoted above after the proposed pay rise.he didn't go to uni, incur hugh debt and didn't hold peoples lives in his hands. BTW I don't think he was overpaid. As I said earlier, a race to the bottom with a big pinch of envy.

 

 

 

I am replying to the post because I did not say that people were at work for 48 hours a week - they ARE if you add in all the time and a half payments.

 

Doctors are not the only ones working shift patterns - how about the people who work on London Underground doing signals work throughout the day and night - and plenty of other groups of workers doing shift work.

Edited April 8, 2016 by antone
Fixed quote tage - content of post not changed

[labrat]

I would say 22.000 is a rediculas amount for a Junior doctor - I earn more than that repairing laptops. And I don't work weekends

 

If mps pay was cut to 35.000 a year then that would be 25 million a year saved. Or enough to give an 8.000 pay rise to 3000 doctors.

 

Its hypocrisy for mps to impose sat working as "normal" hours when they don't work it

 

I have no medical background and I support the doctors all the way

 

I'm sure any petition to get an mp pay cut would pass the 100,000 mark within hours

 

But then again mps get to ignore the wishes of the public - their employers don't they

[goodatresearch]

Agreed

 

 

 

I would say 22.000 is a rediculas amount for a Junior doctor - I earn more than that repairing laptops. And I don't work weekends

 

If mps pay was cut to 35.000 a year then that would be 25 million a year saved. Or enough to give an 8.000 pay rise to 3000 doctors.

 

Its hypocrisy for mps to impose sat working as "normal" hours when they don't work it

 

I have no medical background and I support the doctors all the way

 

I'm sure any petition to get an mp pay cut would pass the 100,000 mark within hours

 

But then again mps get to ignore the wishes of the public - their employers don't they

Edited April 9, 2016 by antone
Fixed the quote tag - content not changed.

[Conniff]

The day a loved one dies is far from normal in our daily lives. All the clocks may stop in our personal lives,

but the health service must carry on caring for people as it does on every normal day. Yet on strike day,

every family afflicted with heartbreak will know that that day of personal distress is not a normal day in the

health service. Families will always wonder whether their loved one would have lived if junior doctors had

been there as normal. The bonds of trust between doctors and society have been frayed; I fear that the

proposed strike might tear them irreparably.

 

The Telegraph

[think about it]

Interesting isn't it then that they're so widely supported by their senior colleagues that it could be argued that the standard of care and safeguarding could well be higher on those days as the consultants themselves do the 'leg work' normally done by a JD.

 

Scaremongering nonsense...

[Ell-enn]

I agree, if the junior doctors aren't there, then their seniors/consultants/specialists will be treating the patients, whether they are dying or not they will get the same care as they would if the doctor's weren't on strike and the relatives will be given the same empathy and consideration as usual. It's ridiculous to think (and print) otherwise !

[silverfox1961]

If I had continued working in 1998 at the same rate I was on at the time I was made redundant (18K) the value of that would now be worth approx 29K. What did I do to earn that amount? Install, repair and maintain commercial satellite systems in hotels, car dealers and bookies.

 

Junior Doctors who have done a damn sight more than I did (and my training was free) to get where they are now and they are paid a pittance for the privilege of doing so. The weekend hours make up for the shortfall in basic wages. I would say that for the majority of NHS workers, it isn't just a job but a vocation and when any government devalues them in the aim of providing a 7 day working week with the same money for a 5 day week, something has to give.

 

I have been lucky so far in that my appointments haven't coincided with a strike day but if they do, I won't complain because I feel Junior Doctors and some nursing staff should be paid more than they are getting now.

[unclebulgaria67]

The other point not often mentioned is that for some part time staff who are mothers or fathers with childcare commitments, is that they will lose out due to this new pay deal. They may currently do hours by arrangement with their trust management that fits in with their commitments. Under the new pay deal they might not be able to keep the same hours and if they are covering weekends/nights at a higher rate, they will see a reduction in pay.

 

The cost of an enforced new contract could be that enough leave or are put off working for the NHS, that it creates a staffing shortage across the whole week. This might add to employing agency staff at a huge cost and recruiting staff from places like India and the Philippines.

 

I can understand why Jeremy Hunt wants the new contract so that Trusts have more flexibility with staff hours without a higher rate at weekends, but i think he might end up in a worse position, that ends up costing more. I think he needs to start listening to concerns being raised and to try to come to a settlement. If he is having trouble with junior Doctors, i suspect Consultants might be more difficult. And for full 7 day Hospitals you need more Consultants at weekends.

[Filcin]

So now they are going to deny the population emergency treatment, intensive care and maternity care.

 

Writing in the Guardian today Sir Bruce Keogh, medical director of the NHS in England, said: “Doctors are the most trusted profession. This trust is a privileged gift bestowed on us by society, but it brings responsibilities and expectations. One of these expectations is that we are there when people need us most.

 

“By withdrawing emergency cover, we risk crossing a line, which will irreparably damage this trust and the reputation of our profession. So I encourage every doctor considering withdrawing emergency cover to dig deep and ask whether such action is fair to patients or compatible with the values and privilege of being a doctor.”

 

I think the past strikes show they have already crossed the line. Striking by doctors should be illegal as it is for the police.

[goodatresearch]

Keogh should direct his criticism at Hunt and the government.

 

 

 

So now they are going to deny the population emergency treatment, intensive care and maternity care.

 

 

 

I think the past strikes show they have already crossed the line. Striking by doctors should be illegal as it is for the police.

[think about it]

So now they are going to deny the population emergency treatment, intensive care and maternity care.

 

 

 

I think the past strikes show they have already crossed the line. Striking by doctors should be illegal as it is for the police.

 

 

No, this is a little like going to the airport for the airlines to announce that only the most experienced and qualified instructors will be flying your aircraft on Tuesday and Wednesday. You wouldn't have an issue with that I take it?

 

So when the consultants, who fully support their junior colleagues, provide cover you can be assured that it's of the absolute highest standard. Emergencies will still be dealt with, babies will still be born and no-one is turning off the life support machines and ushering the visitors out of the door of ICU.

 

If the SoSFH and Keogh were so concerned they'd pull the imposition and the strikes would be cancelled. Simple really - so why won't they do it?

[unclebulgaria67]

Blame must be with NHS England and Jeremy Hunt. If they have agreed 90% of the changes and cannot agree the remaining issues, then it is up to NHS managers around England to talk to their Doctors to discuss their personal issues with the new contracts. They keep blaming the BMA, but no trade union can force members to refuse a new contract or go on strike. The strike ballots have shown a huge majority in favour of strikes.

 

A cross party group has recommended that Hunt accept a trial of the new Doctors shifts, to see how it works for Hospitals and patients. Hunt has refused this, presumably because the trials might highlight problems. Several of the cross party group are Doctors, including Dan Poulter who worked for Hunt in the health department.

[Ell-enn]

My first grandchild is due this week and they have been assured that the best care possible will be available if needed

[tobyjugg2]

If the SoSFH and Keogh were so concerned they'd pull the imposition and the strikes would be cancelled. Simple really - so why won't they do it?

 

and it is as simple as that.

 

* Hunt says call off the strike and talk about something - but I'm imposing the new contract as is anyway.

 

* BMA says call of the imposition of the contract and return to genuine talks and we WILL call off the strike.

 

 

Quite black and white there even if the ins and outs of the contract aren't.

[silverfox1961]

While doing some searches on the NHS, I came across an article by Harry Leslie Smith and his description of life before the NHS. It speaks volumes.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/10/hunger-filth-fear-and-death-remembering-life-nhs

 

While the article is presented by The New Statesman, it shows just how much the coalition Government at the time treated the poor. A lot of what is happening today harks back to the days of pre NHS.

The rich trying to dictate to undermine the rights of lesser mortals and one that MUST be defended against. Even if strikes were to be made illegal, there are other ways around it.

 

I would imagine the doctors would find this a lot easier. They could write each other sick notes (unlawful but who could actually prove it)

[Old Cogger]

These things go round and round and round - no different to years ago we strike more monies BUT than ks for out Tuition fess public.

[think about it]

While doing some searches on the NHS, I came across an article by Harry Leslie Smith and his description of life before the NHS. It speaks volumes.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/10/hunger-filth-fear-and-death-remembering-life-nhs

 

While the article is presented by The New Statesman, it shows just how much the coalition Government at the time treated the poor. A lot of what is happening today harks back to the days of pre NHS.

The rich trying to dictate to undermine the rights of lesser mortals and one that MUST be defended against. Even if strikes were to be made illegal, there are other ways around it.

 

I would imagine the doctors would find this a lot easier. They could write each other sick notes (unlawful but who could actually prove it)

 

Don't need a sicknote for a one/two day absence - I think it was Chicago where teachers were prohibited from striking and a mystery illness struck them on the same day and there was nothing that 'city hall' could do about it...

 

But, far be it from that the most 'dangerous' thing JD's could possibly do is work to rule. I see, everyday, medical staff going above and beyond; missing out on family time, meals, breaks, trips to the toilet etc etc just to stay and help. For JD's to say 'Oh look, it's finishing-oclock, I'm going bye...' day in day out would be disasterous.

 

It's astonishing how if this were any other profession (and sorry to all of you idealists, it's just a job...) we'd be talking about how terrible it is but because

certain right wing media outlets are very adept at terrifiying their readership (easily done I suppose) then people start making wild assumptions rather than looking at the govt's own admission that the contract discriminates against women, that they're trying to make 5 go into 7 and that there's no danger during the strike as senior Dr's are on the 'shop floor'.

[tobyjugg2]

But, far be it from that the most 'dangerous' thing JD's could possibly do is work to rule. I see, everyday, medical staff going above and beyond; missing out on family time, meals, breaks, trips to the toilet etc etc just to stay and help. For JD's to say 'Oh look, it's finishing-oclock, I'm going bye...' day in day out would be disasterous.

 

Not disastrous in Tory eyes -

They could then invoke the fines which are part of the package for hospitals not meeting targets (caused by available doctors only working their very long minimum hours as Hunt bangs on about being the reason) and take more money out of the frontline NHS budget.

 

The NHS will quickly die in the hands of the Tories.

Get your medical insurance in now before prices start to balloon.

 

Interesting to watch sky and the BBC news giving BMA reps a hard time, often not even letting them finish a sentence, yet letting Hunt spin his yarn without interruption or any real challenge

[Old Cogger]

Same old argument from past Decades, in the past we chose our profession and all that went with it! if did not accept then get out as our un happiness could well inflict other un-knowingly, all hours went with our job - simple you want the monies then earn it, remember/ maybe you were not around then, BUT in 1948 Nian Bevan and the BMC finally agreed that forming the NHS that Consultants have the opportunity to NOT only work for NHS BUT take on Private work using the Facilities of the NHS Hospitals, only then did the NHS get under way, But like all apprenticeships in those days, not 2 -3 years training But 5 -8 years to be fully qualified only then reap the rewards of study etc,

 

Old Saying:- If you cannot stick the heat get out.

[tobyjugg2]

Old Saying:- If you cannot stick the heat get out.

 

Not sure what your point is here.

Are you saying that doctors who dont like the new contract should just leave?

You do realise that many are saying that is exactly what they are looking to do?

 

Again win win win for the Tories and Lose Lose Lose for anyone who thinks the NHS is a core and defining part of our society.

 

I saw an 'entrepreneur' just using the argument that no-one should get more money for working weekends as many people already don't, and when the family question was raised it was poo poo'd.

 

Well I think everyone who gives up their family time should have the family compensated for that rather than dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

If there is one thing more important to the health of our society than the NHS, then it IS a healthy family and 'social' (societal) life.

[Old Cogger]

nothing pointed at contracts - all this change this that the other - modern critical condition , you enter a job area knowing situation, your choice or get out? No matter what Government was in Power Same old recurring problems from time to time, yet we lowly hard working 79+ hour a week get on with it, -- words to me from the Medical Profession in the past, no work no Doe, & no such thing as Tax Credits etc, keeping a family of 4, out day/night remember those days well!

[unclebulgaria67]

The Doctors are an intelligent bunch and Jeremy Hunt is treating them like any other Trade Union. Remember that it was Jeremy Hunt who co authored a book making the case for privatising the NHS. They have turned health services in England into a confusing market place, with private companies bidding for services with NHS Hospitals.

 

The junior Doctors contract is an attempt to spread their hours across more days with new shift patterns on a cost neutral basis. The NHS already is a 7 day a week service, but because Weekend hours are at an overtime rate, it is currently more expensive to add extra shift hours on a Saturday. The reduction is rostered hours is purely reducing hours they will get paid for. The Doctors will still be working excess hours, as the government are not increasing spending to recruit more Doctors.

 

David Cameron should be telling Jeremy Hunt to sit down with Doctors to come to a deal.

[SabreSheep]

nothing pointed at contracts - all this change this that the other - modern critical condition , you enter a job area knowing situation, your choice or get out? No matter what Government was in Power Same old recurring problems from time to time, yet we lowly hard working 79+ hour a week get on with it, -- words to me from the Medical Profession in the past, no work no Doe, & no such thing as Tax Credits etc, keeping a family of 4, out day/night remember those days well!

 

You miss the point. The strikers joined a profession and then are threatened in having somethign imposed on them thus changing their situation.