A Having problems getting ESA85 Statement from recent WCA

[tommy456]

I'm appealing the ESA mandatory reconsideration and the ATOS farce aka WCA

 

I sent the completed appeal forms (SSCS1) along with a copy of the mandatory reconsideration notice to the appeals centre PO box address in Bradford

 

HMCTS SSCS Appeals Centre

PO Box 1203

BRADFORD

BD1 9WP

 

Using the to sign for service, as i didn't want them claiming to have not received it, i posted it on Friday last, but according to the online tracking facility it hasn't yet been delivered so much for 1st class mail, should it have gone missing, at least i have proof of posting it

[tommy456]

Just an update I have a letter from the HM courts and tribunals service, saying that they have received my appeal,

 

what happens now,

do i have to sign off JSA and re apply for ESA whilst i wait for my appeal,

or will this happen automatically ?

 

seeing as they have made the whole thing more confusing for us by adding this extra layer of bs (mandatory reconsideration) because the sooner i'm back on esa the better ,

[~Starryeyes~]

tommy456,

 

Another scenario that Government apparently neglected to plan for!

 

Probably because they were reluctant to pay assessment rate employment and support allowance pending appeal when they introduced the new system.

 

In the absence of any definitive guidance to claimants or Jobcentreplus; advice varies from 'request assessment rate ESA at Section 5 of an SSCS1 form' to 'reinstatement of ESA payments is automatic'.

 

Both are possibilities, neither are guaranteed.

Especially for appellants who have claimed jobseekers allowance during mandatory reconsideration.

 

Among a self-help group that my Mother belongs to,

they have found the best method is a written request to their benefit delivery centre,

 

accompanied by a copy of the acknowledgement of appeal from the Courts and Tribunals Service and a Med 3 certificate.

 

To minimise a delay in payments,

I suggest you close your claim for JSA in a jobcentre at the end of a jobseeking period and put your request for ESA into the post on the same day.

 

Claims for ESA pending appeal do not need a new ESA1 or telephone claim. Payment would be rejected under the less than six months since a decision of fit for work regulation.

 

Should anyone reading this know of some official guidance or policy, from Government or Jobcentreplus, as to an official procedure for appellants to claim assessment rate employment and support allowance pending an appeal to the Tribunals Service, please, pretty please, send us a link.

 

Starryeyes.

[tommy456]

I notice that i'm not alone in getting an appeal date with only 3 weeks notice and after less applying less than 1 month ago, it would appear that [problem]eron's coalition has found even more ways to persecute the sick

 

3 weeks does not give enough time for someone to get supporting evidence and submit it IMO let alone swap back from JSA to ESA ,what is going on, anyone know?

 

Also of what use is the audio recording of the WCA at an appeal? as i would think it extremely doubtful they would want to listen to it, so how is it of any use to you or is it really just another part of the charade called the WCA designed to give us false hope?

[antone]

This is, perhaps, a first here in this forum: someone complaining that it's taking too little time for appeals to be heard. If the date doesn't suit you, contact the Tribunals Service office and ask for another - they will oblige if possible. This is not a sinister plot. In fact, the TS probably thinks it's doing what most claimants want by offering prompt appeal hearings. If you're on JSA, you don't need to reclaim ESA prior to your hearing.

 

As to recordings, they also are not part of a sinister government plot. In fact, the DWP and Atos would rather recordings didn't take place at all - the pressure to record the WCAs came entirely from claimants. Whether the recording is heard at the Tribunal hearing or not will depend largely on the judge and the circumstances of the appeal. It could be useful if the Atos report says something like "Mr Smith stated he could walk half a mile unaided" and Mr Smith asserts that he stated no such thing.

[tommy456]

Well 3 weeks doesn't always give enough time to organise things such as letters or FOI disclosures from GP's ect, and as for going back on to esa the sooner you can do this the better for the majority of people who have had the unfortunate choice of no money or claim JSA whilst they await the mandatory re consideration (IMO which is just another obstacle put in the path of appellants)

 

Why anyone would wish to stay on JSA for longer than they needed to i do not know, having to continually jump through hoops many of which are pointless whilst being treated as fit for work when you are not ,???

 

But if they have started fast tracking of ESA appeals it wouldn't come as any great surprise, And according to the DWP's stats from last year iirc the region that i live in has the highest failure rate for esa appeals in the uk, which doesn't exactly give me much confidence in the system in place,

 

Having spoken with some one from the CAB who specialises in ESA appeals and has attended lots of them, i was informed that audio recordings aren't a normal occurrence at appeals,

 

if they don't want to hear it, then that would make having an audio recording pointless would it not?

[**Margaret**]

tommy456,

 

No, appeals aren't being fast tracked.

 

Ironically, given the excessive waiting times of the last few years, some venues are now running out of appeals to hear!

 

The main reason being, that most of them are backlogged (for mandatory reconsideration) with Jobcentreplus dispute and resolution teams for up to six months and longer.

 

Not to mention that Atos aren't doing as many assessments cos they don't have enough personnel. Or that lots of would be appellants have been discouraged by the increased complexity of the appeals process, without any legal aid.

 

As antone advises, if you feel you can't be ready in three weeks, write to the Tribunals Service as soon as possible for a postponement and give waiting for evidence as your reason.

 

If the postponement's refused, you may get an adjournment on the day if you can explain what you're waiting for, and why it's important.

 

For medical records from your doctor, you need a subject access request. (Rather than a freedom of info request which is for getting recorded info from Government and Public Authorities.)

 

The practice should respond within forty days.

Once you've received it CAG has a guide to preparation of a written submission at;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?251737-Appealing-or-going-to-a-Tribunal-Some-useful-information

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

 

Discs, Tapes, n Transcripts,

 

Admissibility of recorded evidence of a capability assessment, both covert and official, is entirely at the discretion of the judge.

 

In my personal experience, as panels are obliged to consider all the submitted evidence (or explain why not) the tendency is to accept audio recorded evidence unless they can find in the claimant's favour without it.

 

But acceptance doesn't always translate into a tribunal hearing, scheduled for thirty/sixty minutes, spending forty minutes listening to a disc/tape unless there's a specific reason.

 

The only one I've known a panel listen to in its entirety involved an allegation of the assessor putting words into the mouth of a learning disabled claimant.

 

First thing to do with an audio record of an assessment is to create a written transcription. Then use the transcription as you would any other evidence; to support your claim for the component of employment n support allowance (or rate of personal independence payment) that you're arguing for.

 

Add it to the rest of your evidence and refer to it in your written submission where it supports your claim for benefit or debunks the ESA85 (PA4 for PIP).

 

Explain that the original disc/tape is available to the tribunal if required, and make sure you take it with you on the day.

 

At an earlier stage of the appeals procedure, knowing that an audio record of an ESA or PIP assessment exists, can influence the outcome of mandatory reconsideration.

 

To date, I've had two revisions at mandatory reconsideration cos the decision maker's known that 'he said, she said' can be proved one way or the other.

 

Don't know whether either of them actually sourced their copy of the disc/tape from Atos secure storage at Leeds.

 

Whether it's worth submitting a transcript of an audio recorded assessment at mandatory reconsideration depends on individual circumstances.

 

Assuming it's favourable to the claim, it increases the chances of revision without an appeal. But it also increases the time that a claimant who's had to claim jobseekers has to jump through extra hoops.

 

Margaret.

[tommy456]

Thank's for the info, although i'm a little confused about why you referred to legal aid as i didn't think you could have solicitors speak for you at tribunals

 

And until recently whilst trying to go back onto ESA (at pre assessment rate) from JSA , that now it isn't automatic anymore, as claiming JSA closes the ESA claim (even though it was previously stopped because of scoring 0 @ the WCA) you now have to tell the benefit centre that you want to start a new claim ,

 

but this can only happen once you have had the acknowledgement letter from HMCTS, and they have it also, and then you have to wait for them to give you date when you can claim esa from again, absolutely bonkers, layer after layer on bureaucratic nonsense red tape, designed to hinder the already persecuted sick

Edited November 1, 2014 by honeybee13

[osdset]

I think the legal aid issue is more about funding for an advocate from an advice centre than an actual solicitor.

[tommy456]

oh, ok i thought for some reason that they did it for free , that they like the CAB were volunteers ?

[tommy456]

According to several advisers/coaches or whatever they describe themselves as these days, as part of your claimant commitment you have to provide proof of your job seeking activities ,

IE write details in thr My work plan book ect,

and if you say that you asked a friend if they had knowledge of available work,

apparently just saying that you asked a friend isn't good enough they want their names, why?

 

I have found several FOI requests that say that the job seeker does not have to provide written evidence or allow them to access your Universal job match account

 

if this is the truth then why are so many JCP staff making things more difficult for claimants than they need to do, ?

poor training, to meet sanctions targets (apparently they don't exist)

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Paragraph 9 of the ‘Work Plan Booklet Guidance’ reads as follows:

 

9. There may be times when the claimant has recorded their activities to the same standard in a different format. In cases like theses, the Work Coach and Assistant Work Coach should then encourage the claimant to revert to use of the My Work Plan booklet. However, this booklet is not a mandatory product for demonstrating evidence of work search and claimants have the right to demonstrate what they have done to look for work through whichever means they deem suitable and most effective

 

Just like all the nonsense with Universal Jobmatch the nonsense with the Workbook and using it is not mandatory.

 

All that is necessary is that the claimants provides evidence of their job search activities, the way they do it is up to themselves, it can even be verbal. Evidence is evidence, whichever way it is presented.

 

Anyone asking for and storing the names of someone else's family and friends without their consent, in this case in order to check up on them, could be construed as interference with privacy rights. My acquaintances would not take kindly to any details of their conversations with me being registered or recorded by officialdom with a view to use them as evidence or perhaps future witnesses in Tribunal hearings or to penalize or sanction me.

Why do they do it? Your gueses are as good as anyone else's. I would add badness, ignorance and delusions of grandeur above their station.

[tommy456]

the likes of Esther McVey and IDS have a lot to answer for,both seem to have issues with the unemployed and sick/disabled in this country, or the power has gone to their empty heads,

 

I had one coach or whatever at time of signing on, look at my work plan, which i had wrote asked around friends about jobs, looked in local newspaper, Now that i've seen the FOI response from the dwp, i'm not going bother writing anything in the poxy book, my evidence will be verble. if they don't accept it that's there lookout, i would imagine attempts to sanction me would /should fail as i have not done anything wrong

[essexmat]

Why set yourself up for grief and a possible sanction? If you are looking for work how long will it take you to write a few lines on a piece of paper explaining what you have done? I don't get why this is a hassle for you? As one of my advisers at the time told me (he was actually Ok for a JCP adviser) "If people cannot turn up to see me with a few lines of evidence written down for 5 minutes every 2 weeks then they set themselves up for sanction"

 

 

Do yourself a favour, even if you did not do anything write something down to appease JCP and avoid any problems. Whether you have to based on human rights, legal issues, FOI is in this case not relevant - the question is for 5 minutes of your time do you want to risk being without money?

[Mr.P]

Paragraph 9 of the ‘Work Plan Booklet Guidance’ reads as follows:

 

9. There may be times when the claimant has recorded their activities to the same standard in a different format. In cases like theses, the Work Coach and Assistant Work Coach should then encourage the claimant to revert to use of the My Work Plan booklet. However, this booklet is not a mandatory product for demonstrating evidence of work search and claimants have the right to demonstrate what they have done to look for work through whichever means they deem suitable and most effective

 

Just like all the nonsense with Universal Jobmatch the nonsense with the Workbook and using it is not mandatory.

 

All that is necessary is that the claimants provides evidence of their job search activities, the way they do it is up to themselves, it can even be verbal. Evidence is evidence, whichever way it is presented.

 

Note: Even if you present evidence verbally, a JCP adviser can ask for supporting documentation such as screen shots and copies of emails IF you have the means to print them out.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

You are quite right Mr. P. JCP advisers can insist on having things done as they wish and they can also impose arbitrary penalties and pointless activities on claimants.

 

However, what they ask for and what they are legally entitled to expect are two different things.

 

I am currently awaiting a Tribunal Hearing on that very point.

 

I have learned to my cost that appeasement does not work but in fact encourages them to place more and bolder hurdles in the claimant’s way. I am convinced, from personal experience and the experience and evidence of others, that the objective of the JCP advisers is to get the claimant off benefits any way they can.

 

Few, if any of them, have the skills, qualifications or experience to place claimants into appropriate work, nor do they undertake intensive training to enable them to do this. So, they are limited in the use of that avenue to get claimants off benefits.

 

The only other avenue, for which they do receive intensive training, is to get claimants off benefits by intimidation, threats and any and all devious, duplicitous and even corrupt means to sicken claimants into abandoning their claims or rights to benefits.

 

When those who are able and can stand up for their rights and question the present system decline, for whatever reason, to do what they can to bring about change and/or order and decency to the present state of affairs, they are not really helping themselves. They are, I believe, assisting in, even encouraging, the increase of the burden on those who are less well able to defend or stand up for themselves.

[jasta11]

Ask 10 advisers the same question and you'll get 10 answers, all of varying degrees of truth. They do have sanction targets - even if never offically confirmed in the press - so always be cautious. There are a couple of very decent advisers at my JC.. but I still record them as I do all the rest

 

They can accept verbal evidence, unless they have reason to doubt that it's not genuine. Obviously if you only ever give verbal evidence each time they're going to want a bit more proof though. My way is to make sure I show LOADS of screenprints of jobs actually applied for, as this seems to keep the advisers happy - after all, these are actual job applications and what can be more important than that?

 

I still put the old 'I asked around friends and ex-colleagues for vacancies, etc' but because I show so much other jobsearch evidence, they never question whether I actually did it or ask who I spoke to.

[tommy456]

Why set yourself up for grief and a possible sanction? If you are looking for work how long will it take you to write a few lines on a piece of paper explaining what you have done? I don't get why this is a hassle for you? As one of my advisers at the time told me (he was actually Ok for a JCP adviser) "If people cannot turn up to see me with a few lines of evidence written down for 5 minutes every 2 weeks then they set themselves up for sanction"

 

Do yourself a favour, even if you did not do anything write something down to appease JCP and avoid any problems. Whether you have to based on human rights, legal issues, FOI is in this case not relevant - the question is for 5 minutes of your time do you want to risk being without money?

 

My reasons for even looking into this such as finding FOI requests ,

was because i had been writing several lines nearly one for each day inc Sundays,

 

looking in shop windows for vacancies, asking friends , checking local papers , that sort of thing,

and it was accepted, until one at time of signing said that what i had written was too vague,

 

they wanted to know which shop windows, names of the friends ect,

Which i thought was complete bull ,

and an attempt to make things more difficult hence why i am thinking of just giving verble evidence ,

as a way to protest if nothing else,

 

what was is that ester mc vey said ,

they are going to treat the unemployed as adults,

lol could of fooled me,

 

I wonder does she know that a lot of those unemployed are adults ?

maybe a foi request would make good reading

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Being compliant does not guarantee less hastle. Sometimes it actually attracts more.

[neword]

What does it hurt to give them the information they want. If it keeps them happy you get less stress/pressure.

 

Or is this simply you are just saying that you looked and asked but did not so you don't actually have any evidence.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

There is no question about the claimant's obligation to provide evidence of job seeking activity. The question is why should an adviser dictate and impose penalties if that evidence is not presented exactly as he/she demands despite the fact that it is illegal for them to make such demands.

 

 

For example, if the law says that I do not have to use UJ then why do advisers feel it is perfectly reasonable for them to impose penalties on me for exercising me legal entitlements?

[tommy456]

What does it hurt to give them the information they want. If it keeps them happy you get less stress/pressure.

 

Or is this simply you are just saying that you looked and asked but did not so you don't actually have any evidence.

My friends didn't give their permission for me to pass on their details and i didn't ask them, as it seems ridiculous to even entertain the thought ,

 

As for saying which shop windows ect, what difference does it make ? my actions of actually looking should be sufficient , don't forget i'm only claiming JSA until i can move back to ESA and have a fit note to say i'm unfit for work,

 

Then there's the restrictions to the work search which us esa refugees who shouldn't have to claim JSA whilst we await the DWP to complete their mandatory reconsideration , and whilst we apply to the appeals service, they drag this process out as long as possible ,

 

as for the restrictions in our work search, we are often denied these by JCP staff my argument is why should those who find walking and using stairs be difficult expected to do what someone who doesn't have any health issues, just because ATOS find you fit for work and the dwp agree with them , doesn't mean that you health issues are cured,

Edited November 6, 2014 by honeybee13
Pejorative word.

[neword]

The problem is that you are saying you are doing these actions but you are not able to give them any proof because

you are not writing down which shops you have been looking in the windows at or you are not giving the names of

the people that you are asking. and this is where the problem lies.

 

You have a active Job search agreement in which it probably has been agreed by you that you will do these actions,

by not showing any evidence the advisor's (whatever they are called now) will probably end up raising a "Doubt" which

as we all know will lead to your claim probably being sanctioned.

 

And this is where the problem is. It is of no matter to them that you are awaiting for the DWP to get the Mandatory

reconsideration done. As far as they are concerned you are classed as being "Fit" for work and so have to comply

with the terms of the agreement.

 

The advisor's are tasked with getting people off JSA whether through help getting you a job or by other means.

By not providing any proof that you did what you said you did you are actually only causing problems for yourself and

helping the advisor in their task to get you off JSA (sanctioned).

 

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear but unfortunately that's the way it is for everyone on JSA.

 

If you give them a reason to sanction or close your claim they will do it.

[think about it]

There's a good point here that was raised a while back over something similar in another thread. If the person dealing with your claim (insert coach / adviser / clerk etc here), makes a reasonable request such as slightly more detail as to your activity there's a choice to be made. Responding to the question regarding who you've asked is easy. "I spoke to my friend 'John' he's a (insert job role here however ficticious) to see if he knew of any jobs coming up, unfortuately there's nothing at the moment but he's going to let me know if and when something does." No need to give their address, NI number or passport - just some more detail than simply saying 'My friend'.

 

As Essexmatt and neword say it's a question of your resolve. If you have the means and security to challenge a request which, in reality, isn't especially onerous and is generated as an output of your job search anyway (send an email, print a copy or show someone on a screen - likewise with a letter) or to say 'I went to XYZ shopping centre and went around all of the shops', again is not so challenging when the alternative is a 10 minute heated discussion and a potential doubt being sent to the decision maker.

 

I'm all for exercising my rights, however sometimes it's a matter of how I value my time and effort. I for one would sooner be in and out as quickly as possible with minimal chance of something going awry. However, if I had the means to support myself whilst fighting a decision, then by all means.

 

Is it worth not just writing down what you've done or not providing a little extra detail when requested? That's a decision only you can make as it's only you that has to deal with the consequences.

[tommy456]

Well i got a response from the Tribunals service regarding a postponement , and my request has been refused without any reason whatsoever, So i am beginning to feel that i have lost this appeal before it's even heard , and that it will be a complete waste ogf my time even going to the hearing,

the system is a complete corrupt joke