Welcome says My £12k CCA Regulated secured Loan will now become a mortgage!

[goodatresearch]

They are obliged to deduct the interest accrued during the period of compliance,

 

Your lucky they've admitted it,

 

 

I've tried to help a relative with this very issue and took it to FOS.

 

 

FOS took their word

they sent them without them sending any real evidence to back this up

(I made a SAR and the results were pityful).

 

 

Id be interested to know what the statements should actually say

as all they provided FOS with was a spreadsheet

where they lumped two loans together and just showed the outstanding balance.

 

Thanks obiter dictum.

 

Well lender has admitted not supplying annual statements from 2008 to 2012.

 

Therefore is it just a refund total of interest payments made for that period ?

 

Also is there a standard worded template letter for this type of complaint ?

 

Thank-you

[Peterbard]

The requirements of copies are contained in the copy regulations, made under section 180 of the act.

A number of creditors ave refunded money without being prompted, because they failed to include the amount of the loan in the statement,

[Baz1994]

Thank-you everyone for your helpful replies in which are appreciated.

 

The lender is Welcome Finance.

 

My previous SAR a while back failed to produce any annual statements or notice sum of arrears or any default notices pre 2011.

 

I had previously received two computer generated letters advising of an arrears amount only but no breakdown of what it was in respect of.

This is currently in dispute and they have still failed to provide evidence.

 

They eventually sent me copies of statements of account and apologised for not sending any annual statements.

The amount of the loan stated was also incorrect, and they said this was due to an IT hitch in there system.

 

 

This was probably around the same time as they were closing all their offices

so probably explains why I did not receive anything even though I continued to pay.

 

So no annual statements received before Nov 2011.

 

I have an ongoing PPI complaint with WFS in which has been with the ombudsman for over a year now, as they were awaiting outcome of a court case.

They were looking into something to do with commission sheets that I had provided by the SAR in which I was unaware of at the time of sale and submitted to FOS.

 

I have already successfully reclaimed all charges on the account but feel that they have also breached the CCA 1974 section

regarding sending original yearly statements and those that were later sent did not state correct loan amount.

Therefore I was intending to reclaim interest back for failure to comply.

 

The strange thing is

about a year ago, Welcome wrote to us to advise that they had frozen the interest (didn't ask for it, just disputed the account figures)

and now they trying to contact us offering reduced settlement offers

 

By the way this is a joint secured loan in which I am dealing with but we have two account numbers - is this also correct ?

 

If post needs to be moved please feel free and thank-you.

 

They are obliged to deduct the interest accrued during the period of compliance,

 

Your lucky they've admitted it, I've tried to help a relative with this very issue and took it to FOS. FOS took their word they sent them without them sending any real evidence to back this up (I made a SAR and the results were pityful). Id be interested to know what the statements should actually say as all they provided FOS with was a spreadsheet where they lumped two loans together and just showed the outstanding balance.

 

Sorry to hear that goodatresearch but I am expecting the same even though I have in writing that Welcome admitted and apologised for not sending them.

 

My only concern is that they have now sent them and statement of accounts, even though incorrect loan amount stated in which was later amended.

 

Is there a reason Baz you have not had a statement for 7 years ?

 

Who is the creditor ? Are you in any arrears ? has the debt been assigned?

 

77A

 

(4)The creditor is not required to give the debtor any statement under this section once the following conditions are satisfied—

 

(a)that there is no sum payable under the agreement by the debtor; and

 

(b)that there is no sum which will or may become so payable.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy and I have answered in more detail in another post.

 

No statements pre Nov 2011. 2012- 2013 stated incorrect loan amount.

 

Still paying loan only 4 years left and with original lender.

 

Welcome have been notifying an arrears amount but I am still disputing it but still paying monthly payments.

[goodatresearch]

Sorry to hear that goodatresearch but I am expecting the same even though I have in writing that Welcome admitted and apologised for not sending them.

 

My only concern is that they have now sent them and statement of accounts, even though incorrect loan amount stated in which was later amended.

 

I think you've got a good chance,

they've admitted their failure and they can't just supply them years later.

 

 

My problem is FOS taking their word for it when they've provided FOS with no historic data and there's no evidence in the SAR results.

 

 

What they've provided is a table where they've typed in the dates the statements should have gone out.

 

 

Each line shows seperate account numbers for the 2 loans but each line has lumped the amounts owing together.

 

 

I've argued that as there's no historic memos or system notes relating to the annual statements

and this table with incorrect data has mysteriously just appeared,

then common sense would say they haven't complied.

FOS disagree.

 

Personally I'd quote the law to them and ask them to deduct the interest accrued during the period of non compliance.

 

 

Word of warning if you have to go to FOS,

they told me its not for them to decide whether the interest is enforceable.

 

 

I took that to mean that even if the loan company had admitted they didn't sent statements,

FOS still wouldn't instruct them to deduct interest.

[Baz1994]

Thanks again goodatresearch.

 

Well I am going to complain anyway but hear what you say about FOS, as I have previously encountered on other complaints.

 

The adjudicator rejected my previous complaint with Welcome totally ignoring numerous evidence provided and quotes of law that was applicable.

 

I submitted a case file (took me weeks to prepare) of details yet not one of the points were addressed.

 

All I received was the usual standard hymn sheet rejection letter, absolute disgrace !

 

To cap it off, the last adjudicator was the 4th that I had on my complaint and I had to explain how commissions and brokerage operates to her

 

There was clearly a relationship between the broker and lender as I had proof of commission / brokerage payments etc.

 

Therefore it is now with the ombudsman and has been for over a year now.

 

So what you are saying is that FOS will ignore what the law clearly states,

 

dismiss what evidence is provided and basically do nothing

 

It's so frustrating and unfair.

[Peterbard]

As a matter of interest when was your loan taken out ?

 

Regarding secret commission's claims, these have ben brought before against welcome, the sticking point ha been proving that the broker had a fiduciary duty to the debtor rather than jsut to the creditor.

[Baz1994]

Sorry and complaint will be under Section 77A 6 (b) ?

 

Will the agreement only be unenforceable for the period concerned ? Can I claim or dismiss any default / arrears amounts for said period as per 77A 6 (a) & © ?

 

Any further assistance in compiling something in writing would be appreciated.

[goodatresearch]

Yep that it.

I've also had previous problems with FOS.

Thing is, annual statements have to say certain things,

ignoring the lack of evidence,

clearly a table of incorrect figures doesn't include everything a statement should contain.

 

 

The Ombudsman said they could show 3 statements were sent and arrears notices from their solicitors were sent.

 

 

Thing is, this information isn't in the SAR or the adjudicators file of papers, a copy of which I insisted upon.

 

 

Unless of course they're talking about the blank undated template statements,

undated arrears notice, containing no figures at all and addressed to nobody. Its a joke.

 

 

The ombudsman actually said, she knew what the debt was before it was sold so they were entitled to ask for payment.

This completely ignores the law on statements and arrears notices and guess what, no notice of assignment.

 

 

Thanks again goodatresearch.

 

Well I am going to complain anyway but hear what you say about FOS, as I have previously encountered on other complaints.

 

The adjudicator rejected my previous complaint with Welcome totally ignoring numerous evidence provided and quotes of law that was applicable. I submitted a case file (took me weeks to prepare) of details yet not one of the points were addressed. All I received was the usual standard hymn sheet rejection letter, absolute disgrace ! To cap it off, the last adjudicator was the 4th that I had on my complaint

 

There was clearly a relationship between the broker and lender as I had proof of commission / brokerage payments etc. Therefore it is now with the ombudsman and has been for over a year now.

 

So what you are saying is that FOS will ignore what the law clearly states, dismiss what evidence is provided and basically do nothing It's so frustrating and unfair.

[Baz1994]

Regarding secret commission's claims, these have ben brought before against welcome, the sticking point ha been proving that the broker had a fiduciary duty to the debtor rather than jsut to the creditor.

 

Thanks and I know Dodgeball.

 

I spent hours reading all about it and presenting my case amongst other things. Without going into more detail my original loan application was rejected, then some months later get a call from WFS. offering a loan. I have transcripts of the conversation with my OH in which totally contradicts eventual loan amount and terms, yet the adjudicator based their decision on this so called conversation.

 

When I contested it, they stood by their decision and it was referred to the ombudsman.

 

Yep that it. I've also had previous problems with FOS. Thing is, annual statements have to say certain things, ignoring the lack of evidence, clearly a table of incorrect figures doesn't include everything a statement should contain. The Ombudsman said they could show 3 statements were sent and arrears notices from their solicitors were sent. Thing is, this information isn't in the SAR or the adjudicators file of papers, a copy of which I insisted upon. Unless of course their talking about the blank undated template statements, undated arrears notice, containing no figures at all and addressed to nobody. Its a joke. The ombudsman actually said, she knew what the debt was before it was sold so they were entitled to ask for payment. This completely ignores the law on statements and arrears notices and guess what, no notice of assignment.

 

 

QUOTE=Baz1994;4805467]Thanks again goodatresearch.

 

Well I am going to complain anyway but hear what you say about FOS, as I have previously encountered on other complaints.

 

The adjudicator rejected my previous complaint with Welcome totally ignoring numerous evidence provided and quotes of law that was applicable. I submitted a case file (took me weeks to prepare) of details yet not one of the points were addressed. All I received was the usual standard hymn sheet rejection letter, absolute disgrace ! To cap it off, the last adjudicator was the 4th that I had on my complaint

 

There was clearly a relationship between the broker and lender as I had proof of commission / brokerage payments etc. Therefore it is now with the ombudsman and has been for over a year now.

 

So what you are saying is that FOS will ignore what the law clearly states, dismiss what evidence is provided and basically do nothing It's so frustrating and unfair.

 

 

As a matter of interest when was your loan taken out ?

 

November 2003 so not part of the scheme.

 

Broker was unregulated but Welcome were GISC regulated at the time, in which FOS confirmed.

 

Last correspondence received from FOS after I requested an up-date stated something about a pending court case ?

[jackpot7]

Hi I have just requested a SAR from welcome. But the FCA will or cannot comment on my query, but they did mention taking it up with the FSCS (Financial Services Compensation Scheme) worth a try

[Baz1994]

Hi I have just requested a SAR from welcome. But the FCA will or cannot comment on my query, but they did mention taking it up with the FSCS (Financial Services Compensation Scheme) worth a try

 

Thanks jackpot7 but believe that's only for loans from 2005.

 

Mine was taken out in Nov 2003 and was advised to liaise with Lender direct.

[Baz1994]

Further to previous posts can someone confirm if the amount of credit provided stated on statements should reflect what is stated on regulated agreement ?

 

Should it state the total amount of loan (including fees & ppi) or purely the actual loan credit amount only ?

 

I also see that the agreement states APR 20.1% and Rate of Interest 1.35% a month, but statement quotes Annual Interest Rate of 16.20% only (12 x 1.35) - Is that correct ?

 

Thank-you for looking.

[dx100uk]

http://www.stoozing.com/calculator/apr-rate-converter.php

[Baz1994]

http://www.stoozing.com/calculator/apr-rate-converter.php

 

Cheers dx

 

So should Welcome be stating the 20.10% figure on statements and not 16.20% ?

 

And what about the amount of credit provided figure on statements. Should it be the Total Loan amount including acceptance fee plus MIF and PPI or just the cash advance figure ?

 

I have had three different amounts stated on yearly statements in which have been provided ?

 

Thanks for any further help and sorry for if questions sound silly but just need some clarity before submitting a further complaint.

[Baz1994]

Is it 7 days after signature ?

 

Where should this be stated as can only see on agreement by signature 'customer should have been given copy 7 days ago' ?

 

And if so can the charge registered date be before 7 days is up ?

 

Thank-you for looking

[citizenB]

When was the loan taken out ?

[Baz1994]

Further to the above I cannot get to their APR20.1% figure stated on agreement.

 

£232.74 x 180 payments = £41,893.20

Total Loan Amount including fees/ppi/MIF = £15,697.43

 

£41,893.20 / £15,697.43 = 2.669 X 100 = 266.90%

 

266.90% / 15 years = APR 17.793%

 

Is the above correct or have I missed something thanks ?

 

Sorry for continued posts for requests but I am currently scrutinising the agreement before submitting another complaint.

 

No date of agreement under Welcome staff signature

Date of our signature been altered

States first payment to be taken one month after agreement date (10/11/03) and same date thereafter - First was taken 28/11/03 then 1/12/03 ?

No customer number on agreement (blank)

No original Terms of Credit, copy eventually supplied different issue / date.

No mention of fees / charges on agreement.

 

Legal Charge Details

 

Our Signatures & witness details but

 

Date of Charge and Customer number missing again .

 

The more I look into this the more I am becoming more suspicious.

 

 

When was the loan taken out ?

 

Signed 10th November, 2003

 

Further to the above I cannot get to their APR20.1% figure stated on agreement.

 

£232.74 x 180 payments = £41,893.20

Total Loan Amount including fees/ppi/MIF = £15,697.43

 

£41,893.20 / £15,697.43 = 2.669 X 100 = 266.90%

 

266.90% / 15 years = APR 17.793%

 

Is the above correct or have I missed something thanks ?

 

Sorry for continued posts for requests but I am currently scrutinising the agreement before submitting another complaint.

 

No date of agreement under Welcome staff signature

Date of our signature been altered

States first payment to be taken one month after agreement date (10/11/03) and same date thereafter - First was taken 28/11/03 then 1/12/03 ?

No customer number on agreement (blank)

No original Terms of Credit, copy eventually supplied different issue / date.

No mention of fees / charges on agreement.

 

Legal Charge Details

 

Our Signatures & witness details but

 

Date of Charge and Customer number missing again .

 

The more I look into this the more I am becoming more suspicious.

 

 

bump anyone thanks

 

[dx100uk]

sounds like a rewrite

totally unenforceable?

 

 

from post 9 too:

 

 

By the way this is a joint secured loan in which I am dealing with but we have two account numbers - is this also correct ?

this smells as well baz

 

 

did you ever ask them for help?

[Baz1994]

Hi dx and thanks for your reply.

 

I have attached edited copies of agreement and legal charge. No T & C's submitted and Agreement states Secured Personal Loan.

 

Regulated Agreement - I requested copy of completed item with customer number date of agreement but they could not provide it.

 

Legal Charge - Again not dated or customer number entered and again could not provide it.

 

LR has two dates for charge: 28.11.03 in brackets and Registered charge 14.11.03. Apologies for silly question but why are there two dates ?

 

Did I calculate APR correctly as they state 20.10% ?

 

Also regarding the Agreement, is date of signature different to date of agreement ? Only date of signatures entered as 10th Nov 2003.

 

Now re the cooling off period is it 7 days from when they sent out proposal agreement or after signature ?

 

What concerns me is that they were not supposed to have any contact during this period and they have confirmed two separate telephone calls on the 7th & 13th November 2003.

 

Sorry for all these questions but I would appreciate some assistance for clarity as I want to submit a concise further complaint. I already have two others in which are with FOS / Ombudsman regarding false accounting on statements and PPI mis-sale.

 

As previously mentioned I did not request any help from Welcome but out of the blue they froze our interest in which makes me think there are other issues and also keep pestering us with reduced offers.

 

So again if there are any Welcome experts on here please feel free to either PM or submit any further comments.

 

I have various other issues regarding lack of statements and Notice of Sums in Arrears since Oct 2008.

 

Thanks so much as always appreciated but I am determined to not give up with this lot.

 

Sorry any takers thanks

[citizenB]

sorry baz, I had a couple of days off.

 

I am finding conflicting information.

 

Secured personal loans should be given a 14 day cooling off period.

 

 

And then the following from the CAB which says you cannot cancel the following agreements.

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/borrowing-money/your-rights-when-you-borrow-money/#h-can-you-cancel-a-credit-agreement

 

 

Agreements you can't cancel

 

You don't have the rigt to cancel the following types of agreement:

• bank overdrafts
  
• mortgages or secured loans
  
• small loans of £50 or less (except hire purchase or conditional sale agreements)
  
• small loans of £35 or less where the agreement was made away from the lender's offices
  
• loans to pay death duties.
  

I am assuming this has something to do with once the money hits your account - if you have changed your mind, tough - you will still need to repay the capital and associated interest. However, I think if you repay some loans within certain times then you have to repay less interest.

 

Does that help ?

[Baz1994]

I have also come across this Insurance sheet amongst my Subject Access Request details.

 

There are 3 policy numbers mentioned. I contacted insurance policy administrators and Underwriters a while back, who confirmed that they could not find any details under the reference?

 

Why are there policy numbers quoted for the MIF and Acceptance Fee ?

 

Why do they state 181 months and not 180 months ?

 

Fees and MIF start 17/11/03 and end 18/11/03 ?

 

Thanks again

 

sorry baz, I had a couple of days off.

 

I am finding conflicting information.

 

Secured personal loans should be given a 14 day cooling off period.

 

And then the following from the CAB which says you cannot cancel the following agreements.

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/borrowing-money/your-rights-when-you-borrow-money/#h-can-you-cancel-a-credit-agreement

 

Agreements you can't cancel

 

You don't have the rigt to cancel the following types of agreement:

• bank overdrafts
  
• mortgages or secured loans
  
• small loans of £50 or less (except hire purchase or conditional sale agreements)
  
• small loans of £35 or less where the agreement was made away from the lender's offices
  
• loans to pay death duties.
  

I am assuming this has something to do with once the money hits your account - if you have changed your mind, tough - you will still need to repay the capital and associated interest. However, I think if you repay some loans within certain times then you have to repay less interest.

 

Does that help ?

 

No worries Citizen your help is always appreciated.

 

Yes I did see that hence why I was asking as I was a bit confused.

 

So on secured loans do you get any cooling off period before signature i.e. after proposal details sent ?

 

Just located the original Welcome Secured Loan booklet - It states that on Secured Loans you get two cooling off periods. When you apply for loan we give you a copy of the agreement and you have 7 days to consider it blah blah. Welcome do not have a right to contact you during this period.

 

After 7 days we send you a copy of the agreement to sign. You then have another 7 days to consider it during which time Welcome are not allowed to contact you.

 

Now I have evidence that two phone calls / messages were made by Welcome to us on the 7th & 13th November 2003 ?

 

Well I have also read a telephone conversation transcript supposedly from the broker with my OH stating the same. What's also confusing is they talk as if they are Welcome and not the broker i.e. "Well what we do is send you copies of the quote etc..............you would have to sign for me and send back................we are different as we do not need permission from your mortgage lender to add a charge on your property"

 

......and if we signed on the 10th November and returned agreement, should funds be sent on the 17th or 18th ?

 

I have checked Insurance sheet attached. When you have a moment kindly have a look at dates and see what you think.

 

Cheers

 

p.s. Sorry not letting me post attachment. Will try later.

[dx100uk]

MIF is hidden insurance

was this a second charge?

[Baz1994]

Thanks dx

 

Yes I am trying to draft up a Formal Complaint and contemplating to include MIF.

 

I am afraid it was a third charge as we were in dire straits at the time

 

Therefore I am looking at validity of agreement / perscribed terms including incorrect APR, lack of figures including total interest payable, no mention of admin fees / charges and breach of consumer rights regarding cooling off period.

 

Then I have lack of notice of arrears and presentation details and no annual statements for three years. This also includes variation of amount of credit figures on statements in which they put down to a IT hitch in system.

[citizenB]

Phew, dx is on the scene, he will know more about this than me

[Baz1994]

Phew, dx is on the scene, he will know more about this than me

 

Lol and many thanks Citizen.

 

It's all a bit of a mess but something doesn't add up with this one and I am determined to try and find out.

 

It's been a complete nightmare and a lot of worrying and stress for us both.