Euro Car Parks: Morrison's Crawley**Won at POPLA**

[CB&CB]

It seems my car overstayed in a free car at Morrisons

and now have a "Parking Charge Notice" (PCN)

yes this is what is called even though I am fully aware it is nothing more than a speculative invoice.

 

 

Does this invalidate it if indeed it could be classed as valid in the first place

 

The driver and party visited to do weekly shop

- had a tea in the stores restaurant on the way in,

then did the shop then decided to have a meal at the restaurant

to save cooking dinner when they got back home.

 

 

They had not realised that the time allowed had recently been reduced to 2 hours

so by the time they exited they had been in the free carpark owned by Morrisons for nearly 3 hours.

 

It is Euro Car Parks with a date of issue of the 27th Feb however they do give a from date of the 7th March..

.. it has only just arrived today (11th)

 

In the past on the rare occasions I have received these

I have just ignored the threratograms but I gather law may have changed.

 

 

I was not the driver as what in my workshop with a client

and I do not see why I should name the person who was driving

- all the photos show is the number plate.

The vehicle is insured for several drivers

 

Looking on Google I can see a poster stating that the hours have been reduced to two hours but it is not in a position where it would be seen easily if driver is concentrating on the road ahead (as he or she should be)

- if you need to look it is Morrisons store, and car park entrance is in Pegler way, Crawley West Sussex

 

Advice please of how best to tackle this

 

 

- i.e. play their game and get an appeal refusal

and give them the cost of the POPLA route

or just ignore them

Edited March 11, 2016 by CB&CB
typos

[CB&CB]

Answer found when hovering over the "ignore" word - yes was going to write to the manager of the store with it cc'd to the head office. It almost feels like entrapment as by adding a restaurant to the store it encourages people to stay longer.

[armadillo71]

You complain vigorously to Morrisons about the way they let their agents harass genuine customers of the store. Also demand that they cancel the charge and you and your family will not be returning until they do.

Do not identify the driver in any correspondence.

 

I'm sure morrisons will cancel it but you may need to send an appeal to ECP denying keeper liability. You have 28 days by their made up rules for this.

But go the Morrisons route first..

[renegadeimp]

Euro car parks dont have a leg to stand on with morrisons car parks.

 

Just contact the head office, supply proof you were there, and it will be cancelled. Euro car parks are bottom of the barrel. They dont care about whats right or wrong. Thats why they jumped ship from the BPA to the IAS.

[armadillo71]

Euro Car Parks are BPA..

 

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Approved-Operators

[CB&CB]

Yep BPC just an owners club made up of themselves and similar

Hopefully the till receipts have not been binned but the invoice was the first we knew of it - will certainly be complaining to the store manager.

Will send appeal for good measure and copy letter to Morrison's manager to them.

No way am I going to say who was driving and am a little surprised they do not include this in the photograph. When I received one courtesy of another family member it showed the whole front of the car and driver although very blurry but this the infamous MET in the days when ignore was always the best option

I drive quite often on the continent mainly France and Belgium and none of their Superstore carparks have these "management" companies - guess any camera would be ripped out of the ground by angry shoppers so how on earth did they manage to get such a grip here.

[ericsbrother]

Morrisons have given the parking co's the boot from nearly all of their stores so there is a strong chance that ECP are acting without any authority whatsoever and thus making a fraudulent claim. As suggested a protest to the store manager and then to head office will probably kill this quicker than the parking co/POPLA route. You have the best part of a month so dont be in a hurry to write to ECP until you know what Morrisons say.

I would be asking about PP for the shortening of the permitted free parking time as most of the stores in the south are ex-Safeway and usually had 3 hours free parking written into the planning consent.

[silverfox1961]

I would also be querying the fact that they reduced the parking hours from 3 to 2. If, when Morrisons opened, the planning consent was based on 3 hours free parking which was then reduced to 2, did Morrisons (or the landowner) apply for permission to change the parking rules.

 

If you paid anything by credit/debit card then that is all the proof you need.

 

As far as I can tell, no court cases have been taken by ECP in the last year.

[CB&CB]

Thanks for the advice and this is by way of an update to let you know how it all went in case it helps another reader

 

First step was to write to Morrison's store manager 15th March with proof of purchases (till receipts) and explain why the signage was so easily missed. Whilst waiting for the reply (that never came) put in an appeal to ECP just in case Morrison's refused to cancel it having first visited the store to take a number of photographs of signage etc. Needless to say the store manager did not reply and then received (surprise, surprise) ECP's refusal of appeal and a demand for £85.00.

 

Using the number supplied I put in an appeal to POPLA on the 15th May using the code ECP had supplied together with a further letter to the Morrison's store manager this time sent by recorded delivery. Morrison's received the letter on the 17th and signature was "Natalie".

 

The Appeal submitted to POPLA had copies of correspondence to Morrison's and photographs showing detail where signage failed and in addition a photo of signage in a rival (and more honest) supermarket where signage was clear and in a prominent position so it could not be easily overlooked

POPLA appeal came through today as a Win for me, ECP coming in second . It transpires they had not even put in a defence.

 

To date no reply has been received from Morrison's to either letter, not even a basic acknowledgement.

Whilst I am pleased with the result I am not happy over the waste of my time (I am self employed and extremely busy) writing letters filling in the appeals and having to make a special trip to visit and photograph the car cark so a further letter will be going to Morrison's HQ.

 

The whole setup seems very dodgy with a hint of blackmail coming from ECP in the appeal refusal letter. They had in this stated that I now owe them £85.00 and then in "POPLA appeal paragraph stated that if I go to POPLA then the option to pay the lower amount will go and I will have to pay £85.00 if I lose at this stage. They also state that this is the only appeal stage they recognise and that they have not signed up to any other options.

 

With the lack of replies and trouble caused should I now take this further i.e. Trading Standards, The Planning Authority, Local and National Press

Edited June 8, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras,

[renegadeimp]

No point taking it further. Nobody will be interested sadly.

[silverfox1961]

Well done for 'sticking it to them'. I will edit this thread to show your win.

 

This is the second case in 24 hours where ECP have failed to provide the evidence resulting in a default win for you. A bit deflating as you have taken the time to investigate and get your own 'ducks in a row' for ECP to bottle it.

 

A win is a win though.

[CB&CB]

Worked OK as luckily decided to go through the various appeals process and did not rely on an incompetent or couldn't care less Morrison's manager (edited) doing the right thing

 

Why would ECP try to defend themselves when they know full well they are in this scheme to entrap people by using deception that is easy to prove i.e. changing hours, putting ticket machines out of use, poor signage in places where it cannot be easily seen.

 

The inaction of the Morrisons with regard (little regard) for their customers shows that in spite of them saying to the contrary these supermarkets do get a commission from the PPC's boosting there profits so it is also not in their interests not to cancel these invoices

Edited June 8, 2016 by honeybee13
Manager's name removed.

[silverfox1961]

I have recently been invited to a private forum run by Morrisons so if I can, I will raise this issue.

 

Normally, the site mods start the topic of discussion so I will 'encourage' them to do this

[CB&CB]

Thanks Silverfox. That would be good and am sure my family is not the only one caught out by this scheme in Morrison's Crawley - Reigate (Ex Safeways) has also had its hours reduced to two from three. Also with regard to Reigate the original planning stated that evening parking was free but signs now say limited to two hours when store is open so they Parking Eye which run the car park seem to have little regard for the planning authority or visitors to the town.

I not seen these companies operating in Belgium or France even when super / hyper markets are in the middle of cities so how did they get such a hold here... money crossing palms ?

[ericsbrother]

ECP saying that they are not signed up to any other dispute resolution methos is amusing, it is the law and not for them to pick and choose which law they obey. Having said tyhat, many of the parkcing co's reckon they dont have to obey planning law, laws on discovery, dispute resolution, contract law etc.

[CB&CB]

Does anyone know why these companies do not seem to operate in France and Belgium ?

[ericsbrother]

because there are laws against ursury there.

[silverfox1961]

because there are laws against ursury there.

 

And if they tried it there, the locals would rip out the machines or chop the camera poles down. The joys of a republic!

[CB&CB]

And if they tried it there, the locals would rip out the machines or chop the camera poles down. The joys of a republic!

It is the problem we have ourselves caused by letting these modern highwaymen (should it be carparkmen) get away with it. A possible case for people power

All that can be done is educate everyone possible that these companies can be fought as it was not my first encounter with them although these other encounters were in the days when they could only go after the driver which of course they did not know.

Biggest culprit is the DVLA who seem immune to the Data protection Act and are giving out peoples names and addresses to what are in effect private individuals without permission

Edited June 8, 2016 by CB&CB

[silverfox1961]

Ah, the good old DVLA!

Before allowing access to keeper details, a car parking company must be accredited to one of the authorised bodies (POPLA,IAS) and then they have to use the paper application process for a while (6 months, I think). If they pass this process, they are then allowed to use the automated system which the DVLA rarely monitor unless they get a complaint.

 

Once the car parking company has this access, they can then misuse this until caught, get a slap, restricted access for a couple of months and then get access back only to misuse it again. Just check out UKPC for the best example.

 

The BPA do sanction companies but the IPC do not release data to show they are doing the same

[ericsbrother]

no, the problem is that when the parking co's are caught out telling porkies to obtain keeper details they arent banned from accessing the DVLA database and prosecuted for fraud.

 

The law on vicarious liability is clear in this country but in almost every case of corporate wrongdoing the directors get away with it because no-one explains things to the jury properly and the wording used in legislation is allowed to be considered by the jury in almost any way they seem fit rather than saying that, for example, "reasonable" in the context of law means something very specific rather than the more common meaning we would use when for example, considering the price of something being reasonable.

 

Follow the money, as someone said.

Edited June 9, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.