Lowell/? claimform - LLoyds credit card 'debt'

[james2222]

Just received a County Court Claim form (Northampton) from Lowell Portfolio relating to a debt from 2010.

 

It is for a Lloyds credit card default.

 

It was a stressfull period as I was made redundant from my job

and I had a number of financial issues as a consequence ..

. not least having to sell up quickly (nil equity), or risk having my home repossessed as I couldn't pay the mortgage.

 

The debt has been passed through a number of debt collection agencies till Lowell took it on a few months ago.

 

I have no paperwork or information so I'm not sure when the actual default happened .

.. it was sometime in early 2010 so it probably isn't time barred

as I assume Lowells wouldn't raise a court claim for a time barred debt.

 

I assume its not worth fighting this as I can't prove anything .

.. however I'm happy to make things as difficult as possible for Lowell.

 

I assume they bought this debt for under £500 (maybe even less as its passed down a few collection agencies) .

.. claim is for £3,547 ..

. can I make them declare in court what they paid ..

.. and agree to repay what they paid for the debt.

 

If I say I have no knowledge of any debt with Lloyds

...what paperwork or contract will they need to provide to prove this debt actually exists.

 

Is there any defence or method of minimising the claim?

 

I'm no longer working, rent my home and have nil assets, apart from a 14 year old car worth £1k.

 

I'm approaching 65 and live off a moderate (very moderate!) occupational pension.

 

Any help or guidance greatly appreciated.

[silverfox1961]

Thread moved to financial legal issues as that is the best place to get more help.

 

Hi

 

first of all, can you copy/paste this post onto this thread and answer the questions.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do.-**UPDATED-December-2014**&p=4486063&viewfull=1#post4486063

[unclebulgaria67]

Send Lowell a CCA request, as that will help you. Depending on when you took out the card originally, if they don't have the original CCA or a copy of it, they might not be able to proceed.

 

The amount Lowell paid for the debt is not relevant and you won't be able to find out, unless a Judge overides commercial confidentiality.

 

Lowells issue huge numbers of claims and if you defend it, then quite often they don't continue.

 

But provide more information as per Silverfox post and it will help inform best way to proceed.

 

But get the CCA request sent off by standard recorded delivery to Lowell with the the £1 statutory fee due.

[martin2006]

Cca to lowells

CPR 31:14 to the solicitirs acting for lowells

 

Martin

Edited March 9, 2016 by martin2006

[theoldrouge]

Just received a County Court Claim form (Northampton) from Lowell Portfolio relating to a debt from 2010.

It is for a Lloyds credit card default.

It was a stressfull period as I was made redundant from my job and I had a number of financial issues as a consequence ... not least having to sell up quickly (nil equity), or risk having my home repossessed as I couldn't pay the mortgage.

The debt has been passed through a number of debt collection agencies till Lowell took it on a few months ago.

I have no paperwork or information so I'm not sure when the actual default happened ... it was sometime in early 2010 so it probably isn't time barred as I assume Lowells wouldn't raise a court claim for a time barred debt.

I assume its not worth fighting this as I can't prove anything ... however I'm happy to make things as difficult as possible for Lowell.

I assume they bought this debt for under £500 (maybe even less as its passed down a few collection agencies) ... claim is for £3,547 ... can I make them declare in court what they paid .... and agree to repay what they paid for the debt.

If I say I have no knowledge of any debt with Lloyds ...what paperwork or contract will they need to provide to prove this debt actually exists.

Is there any defence or method of minimising the claim?

I'm no longer working, rent my home and have nil assets, apart from a 14 year old car worth £1k.

I'm approaching 65 and live off a moderate (very moderate!) occupational pension.

Any help or guidance greatly appreciated.

 

never assume anything, post the answers to the link provided in post no2

 

make the claimant prove he has his paperwork in order. 99% of claims are of a speculative nature

[dx100uk]

.. it was sometime in early 2010 so it probably isn't time barred

as I assume Lowells wouldn't raise a court claim for a time barred debt.

 

SB date is from 1st missed payment + say 1mth

not from defaulted date......

 

lowells as will any dca will raise a claim on any debt

be it statute barred or not

 

if they think they can get away with a non contested default rubberstamped judgement

where nothing is checked.

 

 

get that link done please

[james2222]

Thank you Silverfox 1961 and Unclebulgaria67. I'll get the info together to answer the questions. It is quite a relief to know one is not completely alone in trying to make the best of these issues.

James2222

[dx100uk]

can we have that link done please so's we can advise properly on your issue......

 

 

dx

[james2222]

Hi Silverfox1961

 

Have filled in the questions as best as possible.

 

Name of the Claimant ? Lowell

 

Date of issue – 04 March 2016

 

What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Particulars of Claim.

 

1. The defendant entered into a Consumer Credit act 1974 regulated agreement with Lloyds banking Group PLC under account reference xxxxxxxxxxx ('the agreement').

2. The defendant failed to maintain the required payments and a default notice was served and not complied with.

3. The Agreement was late assigned to the Claimant on 17/06/2015 and notice given to the defendent.

4. Despite repeated requests for payment the sum of of £4302.17 remains due and outstanding.

and the claimant claims

a) the said sum of £4302.17

b) interest pursuant to s69 County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issue,accruing at a daily rate of £0.943, but limited to one year, being £245.16

c) Costs

What is the value of the claim? £4812.33

Is the claim for a current account (Overdraft) or credit/loan account or mobile phone account? Credit card

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after 2007?

I'm not absolutely sure but I think it was before 2007.

Can you tell me what difference this could make ... as I'll try to find out exactly when I took it out.

 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Lowells

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? yes

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? unknown

 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Default sums” – at least once a year ? No,

Why did you cease payments? Lost my job and was heavily financially committed

 

What was the date of your last payment? I've no records but I'm sure I paid something in June or July 2010

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor

and make any attempt to enter into a debt mng plan? no

 

 

my life was in turmoil then with 'demands' coming in daily from a number of creditors.

I was trying to find a job, sell my home before re-possession, find somewhere to rent,

so if they did send something it went on the pile of demands with all others

that got lost in the various rental property moves since then.

[dx100uk]

CCA Request

CPR 31;14

 

don't forget to ack the claim on MCOL website

defend all

leave juris unticked

 

 

might pay you to go get your credit file from

clearscore or noddle

might tel you last payment date

 

 

if we can nail this as SB'd

then it will be easier to defend.

[james2222]

Hello All

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

 

The CPR and CCA requests went off on Tuesday (CPR) and Wednesday (CCA)

 

One of the questions Silverfox1961 asked me, 'when was credit card was taken out?'

I've now found the listing on an old Equifax report of 2014.

Credit card started June 2003.

I'm not sure what the significance was of asking if card was after 2007?

 

Unfortunately same report shows a green block in June 2010 which I think was the last of minimal monthly payments of £3

I was making by an Apex card they sent me.

 

 

This is followed by 7 red blocks with numbers increasing from 1 to 7.

No payments since June 2010 but same report lists the 'default date' as 25 Jan 2011.

 

So it looks like the 6 years limit is not an option for me to defend this.

[renegadeimp]

2003? I bet they wont be able to get the right paperwork to enforce the debt in court, and theyre hoping they get a default judgement and not have the debt questioned.

 

Lets see what they come back with , if anything.

 

Pre 2007 they need the original agreement to enforce in court. Post 2007 just a copy.

[silverfox1961]

In April 2007 the rules changed with the CCA 1974 in that a creditor no longer had to provide a signed copy of the agreement to the courts. Any agreement before that date had to have the original signed agreement to show to the court to ensure enforceability.

 

They are allowed to send you a 'reconstituted' copy of an what your agreement would have looked like minus personal details and signature. Others should be able to flesh this out better for you.

[james2222]

Thank you for info ... and also to Renegadeimp

Phew ... a chink of light at end of tunnel.

Do I need to file my defence now or can I wait to see if they respond with anything significant in CPR or CCA requests ... assuming they do respond in the time limits.

James

In April 2007 the rules changed with the CCA 1974 in that a creditor no longer had to provide a signed copy of the agreement to the courts. Any agreement before that date had to have the original signed agreement to show to the court to ensure enforceability.

 

They are allowed to send you a 'reconstituted' copy of an what your agreement would have looked like minus personal details and signature. Others should be able to flesh this out better for you.

[theoldrouge]

Thank you for info ... and also to Renegadeimp

Phew ... a chink of light at end of tunnel.

Do I need to file my defence now or can I wait to see if they respond with anything significant in CPR or CCA requests ... assuming they do respond in the time limits.

James

You file your defence just prior to the defence

Due date. Do not miss this regardless of what

you do or do not receive

[james2222]

My main line of defence will be (hopefully) that they have failed to provide a copy of the original agreement.

I'm not expecting much of a response to my CCA or CPR 31.14 requests, as most members appear to get the 'it will take us 8 weeks' type of response from Lowells.

However, having read quite a bit of info on the site, it appears they can just present the court (and me) with a copy of what the agreement would have looked like.

Surely this wouldn't be accepeted by the court?

 

I've also read some sample defenses ... which have received a few critiques from the team.

Is there any templated defenses I can use as the structure for my defense ... suitably ammended of course.

Thanks for the help ... greatly appreciated.

[dx100uk]

Read this thread properly....

You agreement is pre 2007

Recon is useless

[martin2006]

Read the posts james, pre April 2007 agreements must be true original, post apr 2007 can be reconstituted, yours is from 2003

 

No response re your CCA means they probably dont have it and therefore you use the no paperwork/holding defense.

 

Regardless whether you get an "it will take 8 weeks" response, do not miss your deadline to file your defense, that doesnt mean rush to file it early either, you dont want to file a no paperwork too early for them to produce one, as if by magic!!

 

you have 33 days from the date of issue of your claimform, the issue date being day 1, i think if ive calculated that correctly your defense must be in by 4pm 5th april

[dx100uk]

There are no templates each claim is unique

However you could copy you poc into the search Cag box

Of the red toolbar

 

Dx

[dx100uk]

CCA Request

CPR 31;14

 

don't forget to ack the claim on MCOL website

defend all

leave juris unticked

 

 

might pay you to go get your credit file from

clearscore or noddle

might tel you last payment date

 

 

if we can nail this as SB'd

then it will be easier to defend.

 

Done mcol too?

[james2222]

Done mcol too?

 

Hello dx100uk

 

Not quite sure if you were asking if I have done a Money Claim Online .

.. I don't think I've anything to claim for.

 

 

Lloyds did add a few penalty fees when I couldn't pay

but I'd be happy just getting this Lowells claim put behind me.

 

The Acknowledgement of Claim form has been returned

(I'll check with the court in a couple of days to ensure they have received it)

and I'll await any response from Lowells on CCA and CPR while I draft out my defence.

 

 

I actually travel up the M.1 quite often (past Northampton turn off)

so I'll wait till just a day before deadline before I personally deliver my defence to the court.

 

 

At least I'll be 100% certain it was received by them within the deadline

and it will give Lowells minimum time to 'pull any tricks'.

 

Thanks to all for your comments and advice ..

. I've made a small donation to show my gratitude and if this Lowell claim fails .

... I'll definitely be making another one!

[dx100uk]

you don't need to have used the form

nor do you need to deliver your defence

use the MCOL website detailed on the claimform

both AOS and defence can be filed online

[martin2006]

I think DX meant have you acknowledged the claimform via MCOL, not issued a claim yourself

[mercyblue]

Unclebulgaria is correct "Send Lowell a CCA Request, as that will help you. Depending on when you took out the card originally, if they don't have the original CCA or a copy of it, they might not be able to proceed."

 

Non-compliance of s78 or lack of a cca does not stop the creditor preceding with the claim, of course they may not do so, it is merely one avenue of approach.

 

Some people seem to think this is a given that it is some sort of absolute defence ,statute barred is an absolute defence,

 

However

 

"In April 2007 the rules changed with the CCA 1974 in that a creditor no longer had to provide a signed copy of the agreement to the courts. Any agreement before that date had to have the original signed agreement to show to the court to ensure enforceability."

 

and

 

"pre April 2007 agreements must be true original, post apr 2007 can be reconstituted."

 

Sorry but these two statements are just not true. In april 2007 section 127(3) was removed by the 2006 amendments to the cca act namely;

 

"3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1) (a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner)"

 

It has nothing to do with what constitutes a copy of an agreement, what it does is remove the need to provide a set of prescribed terms at the time of the agreement. So it is true that it gives you potential wriggle room pre apr 2007 if they struggle to do that.

 

What constitutes a true copy was largely defined in the carey vs hsbc judgement (I am assuming the term "true original" meant to say "true copy" after all a document is simply original or not). This was refined by chapter 13 "Guidance on the duty to give information under sections 77, 78 and 79 of th cca 10974" available here https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/13.pdf

 

From the handbook

13.14 (1)The copy of the executed agreement should be a 'true copy' of the original. However, as confirmed in the case of Carey v HSBC Bank plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB), in this context the term 'true copy' does not necessarily mean a carbon, photocopy, microfiche copy or other exact copy of the signed agreement. There is no obligation to provide a copy which includes a copy of the signature.

 

 

We all want the same thing that people are provided with good solid factual information. Perhaps we need a separate thread on what is a reconstituted agreement I do see on here people struggling with the concept of them calling them such things as forgeries because they are in effect "made up". I would be happy to start one off if you feel it is warranted.}

 

I also see you mention delivering your defence by hand well you cant if you turn up to Northampton County Court they will tell you you have the wrong place (apparenlty this does happen) the bulk centre is nothing to do with them. You would only go there if your case had been allocated to a court which happened to be Northampton. It would be maddening to miss the deadline for such a silly misunderstanding. Do it online.

 

I very much doubt you will get anything back from lowells before the deadline so you are most likely going to have submit a defence based solely on the poc. Luckily the poc will no doubt be extremely vague this can be used to your advantage. You need to be a vague as possible yourself - you don't want to commit yourself to any line of defence till you see any documentation they may have. For example does the poc have a lloyds account number on it, if not thats enough to issue a cast iron holding defence. So as has been suggested it could be worthwhile posting the poc.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Andyorch
External link removed

[james2222]

Hi mercyblue

Thank you for your comments and assistance.

Can I just understand and / or get it clear .... do Lowells have to produce my original agreement (or a copy of) at court ... or not?

In your post you wrote:-

 

"Sorry but these two statements are just not true," when referring to the following 2 statements.

 

"In April 2007 the rules changed with the CCA 1974 in that a creditor no longer had to provide a signed copy of the agreement to the courts. Any agreement before that date had to have the original signed agreement to show to the court to ensure enforceability.

 

and

 

pre April 2007 agreements must be true original, post apr 2007 can be reconstituted."

 

I obviously can't remember what (if anything) I signed when the card was issued in 2003.

However, if Lowells can't produce it either ..

. surely that must be a very strong defense, so I'm hoping , it is true .... at least the second statement!.

 

Particulars of claim were shown in earlier post (above) ... repeated here and they do quote a Lloyds account number but as mentioned before I've no records to substantiate or refute this as accurate. I've deleted ID info for obvious reasons.

 

I'll file defense on line as suggested ... much easier than by hand delivery.

Just need a 'vague' defense at this stage.

Should I mention in my initial defense that I've received no response to my CCA and CPR requests (assuming that is the case when I need to submit the defense).

Thanks again for your help.