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    • Well done on your victory!  👏   You must have a magic touch, it's extremely rare that the PPCs accept an appeal.
    • Court hearing today. WON on all counts of claim. The win though is not the interesting bit, but the ‘why’ is really useful. We were allocated 90 minutes but it took two hours by telephone . The defense were represented but I failed to note whether by a solicitor, barrister or other advocate.   As soon as the judge finished the introductions and before he had time to pass the time over to me to explain my case, the defense interrupted and asked the claim be struck out. He then spent the next 40 minutes discussing with the judge that I had failed to properly serve my bundle upon which I intended to rely. The judge asked me to explain and I said I had served the bundle to them and the court 3 days before the deadline, by signed for post with a tracking number to the address named in the summons being the Royal Mail Head Office in London. I said it was a bit rich that they were making this request when they had failed to serve me and the court with their bundle within the deadline and that I had only just received it. They quoted a certain principle of law (which I failed to write down) which explained that service of documents must be made to the address which either party may request service to be made. They claimed that six months earlier when they lodged their defense to my summons, the covering letter had been sent from their Sheffield office and it constituted the address for future service of documents. I of course had no idea of such a requirement and said that a simple letter heading on a piece of correspondence was not the same as a formal sentence in a letter requesting such future service. It gave the judge some concern but he decided to park the issue and allow the hearing to continue.   I was able to explain my case for the £50 compensation for the lost parcel using the evidence from the defense bundle referencing the Overseas Post Scheme. It was all straight forward. I explained the facts and let them speak for themselves. I then moved on to the delayed Special Delivery items. This is where the fun began because I had to argue against their terms and conditions. I used the defense bundle referencing the UK Post Scheme. I quoted from various clauses which explained the rules relating to claims. That ALL delay claims must be made within 3 months, then that Special Delivery was actually 14 days so not 3 months after all, then another clause which confirmed the deadline was 3 months for all delay claims. I quoted further that these were “common terms” and that some services (Special Delivery was one) had additional terms which were called “specific terms”. Another clause stated that where a conflict arises between common and specific terms, then specific terms took priority. So I turned to the Special Delivery section to quote the specific terms as these would have priority. There was only one term that referenced claims. It simply said If we do not succeed in attempting to deliver by this time (being the next day) we will refund your postage. I used this single phrase to take priority over the 3 months  or 14 day deadline mentioned in the common terms. I discussed how the various clauses conflicted with themselves as if the clauses themselves did not know what the deadlines were and how ambiguous and confusing it was.   The time was then past to the defense and he started to argue there was no contract nor liability in tort (a substantial portion of their written defense document and bundle discussed this argument). It made me smile because I was ready for that. The judge though was ahead of the game and (especially because 40 minutes had been wasted at the beginning) he did not want to hear of it. After about one minute, he stopped the defense by saying exactly what I was preparing to say. Simply that I was not suing under contract or tort but under the conditions of the various postal schemes for which they were liable. He asked the defense to answer my claims. The defense then prevaricated trying to argue the clause that distinctly mentioned the 14 day time limit within which to make a claim for delay (which of course it did) ( as an aside, most people might accept that deadline and not bother to pursue a claim). He had nothing to add about the lost parcel.   Time had run out, we had no questioning and the judge said he was summing up. He was quite happy I had served my documents sufficiently well and took the view that the defense had fallen foul of the court order so he was cancelling out the question about valid service. He had no difficulty in accepting the claim that the lost parcel was valid and awarded me the £50 compensation. He then spoke at longer length about the delay claims and the conflict in the clauses. (at this point I had no idea which way this bit would go). Then, he spoke of how a business such as Royal Mail should not be accepting clauses in their contracts which were clearly inconsistant. (that’s when I started to relax), (and then the best takeaway of the hearing), He said that common law provides in the event of a standard contract if there is any ambiguity, the interpretation should be judged against the person drafting the contract. He called it Contra Proferendem. (I had no idea of that concept but had effectively explained it anyway). I was awarded the whole claim plus costs. The defense asked for permission to appeal which was refused.    Remember the phrase “Contra Proferendem” . I shall be looking more into it. I am sure it will come in handy against any institution that have drafted contracts that cannot be individually negotiated. And will certainly be useful for a long while yet against Royal Mail et al.
    • The White House highlights the upcoming offer of free trips in the US by the ride-hailing firms. View the full article
    • Original loan was £5000 unsecured over 5 years, 28 payments remaining, he wanted to extend it back up to 5 year.........the bank offered him £6700 to clear his credit card and the bank loan, £135 per month from the original figure of £121    One debt of two years old and one debt of 15 months        
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    • Ebay Packlink and Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged". https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/430396-ebay-packlink-and-hermes-destroyed-item-as-it-was-damaged/&do=findComment&comment=5087347
      • 33 replies
    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
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Work at customers house


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Hi all

 

 

I run my own Property Maintenance business and recently took on a job to completely refurb a bathroom whilst the occupant was away. The customer gave me an idea of the goods they wanted and chose tiles ect. They left the money with me for the labour and the supplies before they went.

 

 

I then went out and sourced and purchased all the supplies. On the return of the customer I presented a final figure to them and listed every supply individually. I also gave them £365 back which was left over from the supplies money. I have given them a printed receipt from my business with the labour cost and all the supplies listed with the cost. The customer is now saying he wants all the receipts from the suppliers (as I think he belives I have ripped him off on some prices) however these are my receipts for purchases made through my business.

 

 

Can anyone advise on the situation please.

 

 

Thanks

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He also cannot expect someone to do the souring and research of the supplies & suppliers for free and not add a % to the cost of materials.

 

Exactly right. Whether you paid £200 or 2p for the handbasin is none of his business.

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Had this so many times when i was s/e as a gas fitter and plumber, all i ever did was list all items on the customers invoice, end of.

You are entitled to mark up any goods you source and supply whether or not the client has paid anything up front or not.

The rest as stated, is none if his/her business

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Thanks for the replies

 

 

I cant make him understand that it is a labour AND supplies job. He says because he paid the money upfront HE has bought the supplies. Ive explained in any instance he would be the one paying for the supplies whether before or after the work, however as I have gone out and bought them and collected them I have bought the supplies as part of the job.

 

 

Ive explained if it was a labour only job as he is claiming then ALL the supplies needed would have been present on the first day of work or delivered as and when needed for the job following him ordering them.

 

 

Ive explained I need the receipts from suppliers for my bookkeeping as the money he paid went into my business account and therefore a trace of the transactions is needed. He just wont understand or agree!!

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Put it all in writing, keep a copy for yourself. State at the end that you're not prepared to discuss the matter further and then ignore him. I can't see what he can do other than keep pestering you if there's no outstanding bill.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Doesn't matter whether he paid upfront or not, you sourced and supplied the goods, end of.

Theres nothing he can do to force you to supply anything other than your invoice to him for the job you have completed.

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GEMHL Settled

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Spml Reluctantly withdrawn

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Have you now been paid for the job tiler1 ?

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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He paid me upfront before he went away.

 

 

£4000 in total

 

 

£1500 for labour

£2500 for all the supplies (we didn't know exactly how much they would be so he left this amount and said we would adjust it on his return)

 

 

I then returned £365 back to him that was left over

 

 

Originally he was going to order and pay for everything before he went away but then said he didn't have time so could he give me the money to sort ALL the supplies.

 

 

Hes saying because he "chose" the items for his bathroom ie tiles, bath suite ect and left the money he has supplied them and the job is labour only.

Hes forgetting I had to go and pay for it all, pick it up from half a dozen places and get it to the job.

Hes also forgetting I had to source all the plumbing supplies, lights, ceiling panels, tile adhesive, floor adhesive ect ect a list as long as an a4 side of paper!

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He paid me upfront before he went away.

 

 

£4000 in total

 

 

 

Ignore him them...the jobs finished and paid for.

We could do with some help from you.

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In these situations it is not worth the hassle and possible damage to future business that might rely on word of mouth free advertising.

 

If i am being supplied standardly available materials, i would expect to see what price i was being charged for them in an itemised way and where they were sourced. Yes i don't have a right to see what price was paid, as it was probably at a discount. But where your integrity is being challenged in this way, it is probably best to show the customer a copy of receipts of where you bought materials. You would of course charge them the full normal retail price before you obtained a discount. The discount is yours and needed as part of profitable working.

We could do with some help from you.

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Do you know what the occupation of your customer is ? Wanting to know costs and have copies of receipts ?

We could do with some help from you.

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Ask yourself if he would give you a receipt for what he bought a pint of beer for?

He wouldnt, neither should you.

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I am not legally trained or qualified, any advice i offer is gleaned from experience and general knowledge, if you are still unsure after receiving advice please seek legal advice.

 

 

 

GEMHL Settled

Barclaycard Settled

A & L SETTLED IN FULL :lol:

Spml Reluctantly withdrawn

Blackhorse pre 31-7-06 Demand removal sent 23 8 06. ICO ordered removal jan 2007....REMOVED:lol:

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As a possible compromise, you could give him photocopies of any receipts you have but you are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

You must not give him the originals and keep copies for yourself, you need them for your tax return, an accountant will not accept photocopied receipts.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

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I am not legally trained or qualified, any advice i offer is gleaned from experience and general knowledge, if you are still unsure after receiving advice please seek legal advice.

 

 

 

GEMHL Settled

Barclaycard Settled

A & L SETTLED IN FULL :lol:

Spml Reluctantly withdrawn

Blackhorse pre 31-7-06 Demand removal sent 23 8 06. ICO ordered removal jan 2007....REMOVED:lol:

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Yes he is a landlord of a pub so deals with supplies all the time.

 

On a self employed basis?:-)

We could do with some help from you.

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As you have supplied the goods to him, do your own receipt individually pricing each item.

Job done!

You need those receipts because you need to offset them against your profit.

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