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parking ticketing ltd - parking charge notice (private land) query

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hello,

part of my son's job is to visit business's and rectify electrical issues they have.

Often in shops or banks he has to park quite close so he can transport his tools.

 

 

He has received a parking charge notice and I'd like advice please.

Please keep things simple...

...I've looked around the site and other consumer sites (eg moneysupermarket)

and its my understanding that when parking on private land,

the bottom line is that it is unenforceable in law

please clarify the above

 

son visits a bank in Warrington and parks up,

gets a wrapper on the windscreen with the words "parking notice enclosed"

 

within the plastic wrapper is the ticket from a firm called "parking ticketing ltd" based in Ducie Street Manchester

 

reason for ticket: parked on private property in contravention of the site parking restrictions

as displayed on the signage or permit...

 

 

.....A parking charge of £100 is due within 28 days of the date of issue.

 

 

A reduced rate of £60 will be accepted if paid within 14 days with failure to pay the full amount within 28 days

will result in the charge increasing by a further £50

 

date of issue:27/1/16

observed time: 12:05

issued time: 12:18

 

my son emailed them and explained his circumstances (probably have his name now) but they rejected his appeal.

 

Do we just ignore this demand and bin it?

 

this type of event is an going thing for my son

as his employer expects the work to be completed but they won't pay any fines.

 

 

There are security issues with banks in such that, it takes time to sign in

and once in, you cannot just come and go as you please

so the 10 minute observation grace period is used up

before the bank manager even signs him in most times

 

many thanks

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As it is a ticket placed on the windscreen the parking company has to allow 28 days for the driver to either pay up or appeal the charge.

 

 

After 28 days the parking co can apply to the DVLA for the keeper details and then send out a notice to keeper and say that they are being chased under the PoFA for either the driver details or to create a liability if those details arent passed on.

 

The company your son has a ticket from is a mickey mouse company who will undoubtely get things wrong so you shouldnt have contacted them at all.

 

 

If you had come here first you would have then been able to ignore this demand but now your son has identified himself as the supposed debtor we will have to find reason to fight the claim.

 

 

If he has not given enough detail to identify himself then they will have to write to the keeper of the vehicle anyway

so Is it a company/lease van or his own vehicle?

 

First of all we need to see the signage at the site where he parked to see if a contract can actually be formed.

 

As your son had his appeal rejected the parking co should have given him details of

how to appeal to an independent adjudicator and the name of the trade body they belong to (IPC or BPA)

If they dont belong to either of fail to mention it in the rejection then you can ignore them until they get that right.

 

Also, the company you named as the parking co doesnt exist

so we will need to know exactly what the screen ticket says and who has issued it.

 

 

There is a company very close to the name you quoted but we will need to be absolutely certain who the entity is.

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Thanks for the reply pal, I've tried to pm you as I need to tell you things that I can't on a public forum. Could you pm me with a private email address and I'll reply to you from my private address

 

I've now got the email they sent my lad, lots of mention of the supreme court and debt collectors......scare tactics by the look of it but would welcome you looking over it

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please keep things on forum

scan it up here

follow the upload

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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we do not like pm's because this is a self help forum so the advice here is aimed at all and those asking for help are expected to do something to help themselves and that starts with answering questions about the event so we can understand what has happened and what has been said consequently.

 

To be honest it would be better if your son continues with this thread so we get to see and know everything verbatim rather than a vaguer secondhand relay of the info.

 

So back to the beginning, Where and when did the event occur?

 

What is the parking co (exact name )

 

what does the ticket say EXACTLY? A scan if better but delete personal info like vehicle reg and the ticket number

 

what exactly did your son say in his email?

 

what exactly was their response?

 

what does the signage at the site say?

 

who owns the land?

 

last 2 dont need an immediate response but will be very useful in a couple of weeks time

Edited by honeybee13
Paras.

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this site will not allow me to post links and there are links in the email from the Co. to my son.

 

I will post the email in a new post minus the links

 

but I don't know if that will have some detrimental effect on how you view their response

 

the issue is that my son got a ticket to enable parking

but it must have blown off the dash as he shut the door,

something I always felt impossible until it happened to me.

 

 

I understand your concerns about pm's but I don't have the computer skills to upload stuff with blanked out details.

 

 

There is also personal stuff that I'd mention in a pm that I will not put on a public forum.

If I cannot pm someone then unfortunately I may have to call a halt on this and leave the site.

 

 

If that is the case then I'd appreciate a cut and dried answer as to pay up or ignore it.

 

 

many thanks for everyone's time and effort

 

below is the reply from the Co. Parking Ticketing Limited, to my son,

I don't know what his original email contained and they haven't included it in their reply

 

Thank you for your letter of appeal against the Parking Charge Notice issued under the terms of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

 

There are Warning Signs situated on the site that state; Warning, Private Property, vehicles parked in this area must clearly display a valid PTL pay and display ticket in the windscreen. Failure to comply will result in the vehicle being issued with a Parking Charge Notice without any notice given. Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you and the Warden we have decided to reject your appeal for the reason below.

 

As the vehicle was parked without a valid pay and display ticket in the windscreen, (having checked photographs of when the vehicle was issued with the PCN), you can view the photographic evidence yourself online at.............. as clearly stated on the warning signs, the vehicle was issued with a Parking Charge Notice.

 

We can only advise that when leaving your vehicle that you check to ensure that the ticket is correctly displayed for inspection as the warden must be able to easily see all details, these may include dates, location numbers and security features to ensure it is valid and not a copy.

 

We appreciate that you purchased the pay and display ticket but the ticket was not visible and therefore the warden could not check and confirm that the vehicle was permitted to park there.

 

We are sorry but we won’t be accepting your appeal on this occasion as the warden acted accordingly to the signage at the location.

 

We are not able to take into account mitigating circumstances. That an appellant feels he or she had good reason for breaching the terms of parking is not a reason for which we can allow an appeal. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or she abides by any clearly displayed conditions of parking that are clearly displayed on the signs.

 

The PCN is for Damages & Terrorem (click here for Supreme Court Ruling .............. Therefore falls outside “The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999” and falls also outside Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss.

 

The responsibility to observe and obey parking restrictions is yours and as we operated correctly in this

 

instance due to the vehicle being incorrectly parked we will not be accepting your appeal, on this occasion.

 

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

 

Due to above you appeal is refused, you now have the following options:

 

1 Pay the PCN at the prevailing price of £60 within 14 days of above date. Please note that after this time the discounted rate will no longer apply and the Parking Charge Notice will rise to £100.

 

2 Make an appeal to POPLA-Independent Appeals Service within 28 days by visiting ................. and completing the appeal form online quoting POPLA appeal reference XXXXXXXXXXXXXX . If you prefer to complete your appeal in writing please contact Parking Ticketing Ltd on 0845 689 45 45 to request the POPLA appeal forms.

 

3 Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate of £60 will be at an end, the full charge of £100.00 will be payable should your appeal be unsuccessful. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA. Please visit............... . to view other motorists’ appeals to POPLA against ourselves that were refused for various appeal reasons, meaning the discounted rate of £60 no longer applied and the PCN was at the original full cost of £100.

 

4 If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures which will lead to costs being added to the original charge of £100 and we may proceed with Court action against you. Please visit ..................... to view County Court Judgments where we have been successful in obtaining judgment for non-payment of the PCN costing the defendant at least 3 times the original amount of the original £60 PCN. We do not enter into multiple appeals.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

Appeals Dept.

 

Pay On-line: ............... Phone Pay: 0844 848 0814

 

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services ................. an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA as explained above

 

I understand your reluctance to use pm's but I do not have the savvy to upload with blanked out details. There are personal things I can say in a pm that I won't on a public forum. If a pm cannot be used then can you offer a cut and dried advice on whether to pay this or ignore it. many thanks

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want a secure mail to send it too and i'l do it for you?

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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I understand your reluctance to use pm's but I do not have the savvy to upload with blanked out details. There are personal things I can say in a pm that I won't on a public forum. If a pm cannot be used then can you offer a cut and dried advice on whether to pay this or ignore it. many thanks

 

Why do you need ' a cut and dried advice on whether to pay this or ignore it. ' ?

 

You/your son has a POPLA code with the rejection letter/email , yes?

 

So from the information you have given then it is worth appealing to POPLA with a correctly worded appeal.

 

If you want to PM someone then make sure it is a member of the site team.

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thanks for the offer DX but what I've posted above is basically the crux of the matter. The ticket is in my hand not on my computer so I don't know how to do anything with it. There are things going on in my life I cannot discuss here and between that and work, its hard to keep in touch on here until I'm home....sometimes later at night

 

 

I've basically given all the info off the ticket in the first post

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we accept that the ticket wasn't displayed but the charge seems excessive at £60 never mind £100. If its private land do we need to pay it.... is it as cut and dry as that?

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Why do you need ' a cut and dried advice on whether to pay this or ignore it. ' ?

 

because time is running out fast and our personal circumstances dictate we have to be at a hospital each and every day,

there's not much time for much else,

 

 

hence me asking on here if a private property ticket is actually enforceable.

 

 

If it is and the scare tactics they use are bona fide eg the supreme court etc

then I suppose we'll have to pay.

If they're non enforceable then I'll probably tell my lad to ignore it.

 

 

This site was recommended to me so I came here for advice as you know better than me.

Without sounding patronising (as I do not want to come across that way)

a simple answer would be appreciated,

 

 

if these cases are hit and miss then just say so and I'll understand

but its my understanding, rightly or wrongly that they're a breach of contract

rather than an out and out fine like when the Council/Police issue a ticket which you have to pay

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we accept that the ticket wasn't displayed but the charge seems excessive at £60 never mind £100. If its private land do we need to pay it.... is it as cut and dry as that?No it's not.

 

Did your son pay for the time the vehicle was parked?

 

What is the address of the car park please?

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my son paid for the ticket, he cannot remember the address but he was visiting the Yorkshire Bank, 28-30 Buttermarket St, Warrington WA1 2LE

the only "address" on the ticket states "the courtyard"

 

 

I have reference no's that when I go on the link form the email, it shows you the photo's of his van and the plate on the lamppost showing parking rules etc, hence why I wanted to use a pm

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You keep saying ' pay or ignore ', but you have the option to appeal to POPLA which imo you must use.

 

It's late now but check how long your code has to run here;

 

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/popla-code-checker/

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we need to see the signage so if it is local go back there and photograph it. We need to know exactly where the land is and how it is accessed from the public highway

Your son has to do things to help himself, this half baked relying of partial info isnt helping him or us get to the crux of the matter.

Post up the ticket he got as a pdf or tinyurl link

As said there are options other than blindly paying up or ignoring it and that is why we are here but we need to know certain things before we can offer advice. We havent got that information yet.

so,

date and time

place

what company -exact name

scan of ticket

copy of his email

copy of reply

any other correspondence

image of signage

An appeal to POPLA will most likely be successful if we have the necessay info and even if it isnt that is not the end of the road, we have other tactics of killing these claims and that is why we need the exact address of the land in question

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we need to see the signage so if it is local go back there and photograph it. We need to know exactly where the land is and how it is accessed from the public highway

Your son has to do things to help himself, this half baked relying of partial info isnt helping him or us get to the crux of the matter.

Post up the ticket he got as a pdf or tinyurl link

As said there are options other than blindly paying up or ignoring it and that is why we are here but we need to know certain things before we can offer advice. We havent got that information yet.

so,

date and time

place

what company -exact name

scan of ticket

copy of his email

copy of reply

any other correspondence

image of signage

An appeal to POPLA will most likely be successful if we have the necessay info and even if it isnt that is not the end of the road, we have other tactics of killing these claims and that is why we need the exact address of the land in question

 

We'll appeal to popla.

 

 

Thanks for those who have offered sincere advice.

 

 

Eric's Brother I'm so sorry that you are so annoyed at my half baked info.

 

 

If you took the time to re read my posts you will see that all the info is there bar photos.

 

 

I have a seriously ill wife in hospital and I don't need anymore crap off you.

 

 

A simple pm could have saved a lot of time and it's something you need to consider as a group.

 

 

As a moderator you can always re post into the public domain to help others.

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If you took the time to read a number of the other posts here you would see that we spend an awful lot of time asking the same questions of the people who come here without reading other postings to get an idea of how things work.

 

I appreciate that you have other things to worry about but that doesnt stop your son doing something to help himself

and then pass on the details to you

if he isnt a computer user but we do need a precise answer to any point raised which is why first hand is always best.

 

 

The list of required information is fairly standard fare in all of the other posts so nothing special in this request.

the devil is often in the detail so I cannot tell you where the parking co has got things right or wrong

because I havent seen the signage, the ticket or the other details that make or break their claim.

 

 

That is why I ask to see copy of the correspondence between him and the parking co

so we can determine if he has created a liability as the driver at the time

or whether they wrote to him subsequently and claimed keeper liability,

which has different rules for enforcement.

 

 

Again, we often ask for people to investigate the planning consent for the land or property

or whether the parking co has had the right to make contracts properly assigned by the landowner.

 

 

If we dont know the address of the site we cannot research this ourselves

and then tell you whether that is a point to press home.

 

I am not hacked off as you suggest,

I like helping people defeat the parking cowboys

but I do have other things to occupy me as well

so do not want to spend any time entering into private correspondence with anyone

and in any case, that is not how this or other forums work.

 

 

BTW I am not a moderator,

just someone who came here several years ago looking for advice on parking issues

and then having done my reading started offering advice where my experience allows me to.

 

 

I have seen the inside of a court room at the expense of a couple of parking companies

and have similar success with POPLA so can offer some generic advice if you cant answer the questions I ask.

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I apologise EB, I have a lot on my plate at the moment. My lad is in bits over his mum and in a bad way, we're both in work trying to normalise things and keep some routine then going to the hospital. Then going our separate ways as he tries to have some time on his own/with mates and I try to run the house etc its like groundhog day with both of us leading parallel/separate lives

I appreciate your help and will seek his original email to the Co.

 

 

I've googled the address and its the Courtyard in Warrington, a small carpark off Town Hill (google it). I've took some screen shots and will post them up over the weekend. There are shots of the plates but I cannot zoom in enough to show all of the wording, Its 25 miles away but I will drive there and take a pic and post with the screen shots. If I can scan the ticket in work and post it up then I will.....I'll blank the vehicle reg. We have until 9th March to appeal popla

 

 

the reason why I mentioned pm's is because I often post on other sites and people often open a pm as not to go public and I thought it would make things easier on here

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Dx .... if your offer still stands of a a private address so you can upload for me then I'll accept

thank you

 

 

I have tried to upload 3 screen shots but I cannot/do not know how to save them as pdf's

Screenshot (5).jpg

Screenshot (4).jpg

Screenshot (3).jpg

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they are ok

email on the way


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Ok the images of the signage tells us everything we need to know.

 

Let us consider the first sign at the entrance,

it makes an offer that says parking is 50p/hr or £3.50 all day.

This is offer and consideration.

 

 

Therefore if you accept that contract you pay the money and you park.

the sign says nothing about what happens if you dont pay

or whether you need to display the receipt you asre presumably given when you pay to park.

 

 

This means that the parking co has no right to then try and claim a vast sum

for not displaying any receipt or for any other reason

as they are not specifically mentioned in this unilateral contract.

 

With regard to the other signage.

These signs still make refernce to yet more signs which are unintelligible

so cannot form a contract or alter the contract you have agreed to by paying the prescribed fee for parking.

 

 

If I was to consider them withour reading the main sign at the entrance

they still do not create a contract but are merely invitations to treat

as they are inviting you to come in and then consider something else.

 

An analogy would be that a shop has a sale sign saying "50% off, find a bargain inside"

and then you are expected to go inside the shop to see what is in the sale

and what the original price was to see if 50% off is a bargain.

Walking into the shop to enquire doesnt force you to buy anything and nor does these signs.

 

Next stage- appeal to POPLA on the following grounds

 

1. the appellant does not believe that the operator has the authority to make contracts with the motorist

and thus puts it to strict proof by having sight of the assignment from the landowner to the parking co

that allows them to enter into contracts with the public and to make civil claims in their own name.

 

2. the signage at the entrance (show bottom photo from set above) lays out the conditions of parking

and that a person may park having paid the prescribed fee.

 

 

There is nothing in this contract offered and accepted by the appellant

that says that the receipt for the payment must be displayed in any specific manner or at all.

 

 

Likewise there is nothing in this contract that allows the parking company to levy a penalty

or other charge for not doing so.

The signage does not mention any other condition except the payment.

 

3. Other signage scattered around the car park makes reference to yet more signs

and are thus not contractual obligations but invitations to treat at best(show l/hphoto from above) .

 

 

The third set of signs (show r/h photo) are too small in both size and font size

to be intelligible to create a contract and in any case do not constitute a contract in themselves

as that was already created by the sign at the entrance, which the appellant agreed to at the outset.

 

 

This would mean that any futher conditions do not have to be considered

and would in any case be an unfair term under the consumer contracts regulations.

 

4. None of the signage is compliant with the BPA code of practice

for creating an obligation under the terms of paras 2 and 5 of the PoFA.

 

 

Likewise, the Notice to driver fails to identify the land

and the breach of condition that has supposedly occurred

so that is also not compliant with the legislation

and therefore no liability can be created even if all of the other points are found to be incorrect.

 

The first point is a general one that should always be asked.

You would be surprised how often the parking co's do not actually have the authority

to claim a bean from anyone because

either they have signed a deal with the wrong person

or the parking co is relying on out of date contracts,

the company has changed etc

so effectively they are claiming money when they have no right to.

 

 

If the parking co cannot or will not produce a copy of the contract

they have then the matter will be found in your favour.

 

 

The adjudicator will only find for you on one point as that is all that is needed.

 

 

Generally this means that people cannot take a group action againt the parking co

when it is realised that the whole arrangement is a sham.

 

Neither POPLA nor the BPA are going to tell all of their members they are crooks

but read the thread about PE at Mansfield and planning permission.

 

 

I clobbered PE over PP more than 3 years ago and they not only had to apply for PP at the site

I was concerned with but it lead to the Valuations Agency taking an interest in the land

they were "managing" for business rates purposes.

 

 

I believe that the store ended up with a rates bill of some £5k a year extra.

I bet they were delighted.

 

That is an area where the supreme court made a big mistake

and only 1 of the law lords picked up un the point-

they dont actually manage the car park.

 

 

Wouldnt change contractual obligations but every parking co should be paying business rates

or accept they are agents for the landlord and not levy penalties in their own name

but that will stop some big companies like Capita making a dishonest fortune.

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Many thanks for your efforts EB and once again my sincere apologies. As I read your advice above, I take it that I now contact Popla to appeal and just cut and paste your points 1. - 4. and include this last sentence of yours

 

 

Likewise, the Notice to driver fails to identify the land

and the breach of condition that has supposedly occurred

so that is also not compliant with the legislation

and therefore no liability can be created even if all of the other points are found to be incorrect.

 

 

do I need to attached certain photo's to certain points or can I just include the 3 photos (I don't even know if a Popla appeals form allows for photo evidence to be attached) and is it worth me going down to the car park to get a close up photo of the unintelligible plate?

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the images are viewable here so no need for my upload

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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sorry dx, I replied to your pm before I logged in and saw the images and then replied to ericsbrother

cheers for the offer

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just the points 1-4 including the sentence starting "likewise..." as you have identified, I didnt mean to put a line break in there the rest is information to help you understand why. Make sure you use the phots so POPLA will know if the parking co "forget" to use the correct images of the signs at that site.

You would be surprised how many parking co's use stock or fake signage images to make their case including the famous one of a parking sign with the sea in the background for a car park in a town some 30 miles from the sea.

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