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The European Union.....In or Out?


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And the Guardian seems to think that EU safety and environmental controls on fracking is a significant part of the EU 'red tape' the Tories dont like

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/10/uk-backs-bid-by-fossil-fuel-firms-to-kill-new-eu-fracking-controls-letters-reveal

 

NOTE

This article was changed on 11th September to clarify the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change’s position. It is working with the European Commission to avoid “unnecessary red tape” but it would not necessarily oppose all new controls on fracking.

 

So it would seem like those for whom protecting the environment is a prime driver should also be voting to stay in the EU.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Axy0023

 

I have read your link top to bottom and it is irrelevant in relation to 1974/75, at that time very few of the general public had computers,(I never knew anybody with one) so were unable like today to access that information, which suited the government of the day, which was to keep the real purpose of the then common market.

 

Today you have that advantage so are able to look up the relevant information.

 

These are the original leaflets posted through every letter box in the UK.

 

1. Is the government issue leaflet, with all the same propaganda that you are getting from the in mob today, if we don’t vote to stay we will as a country disintegrate.

2. Is the leaflet produced by the in mob with the same rubbish as the governments leaflet.

3. This leaflet is from OUT it is the only leaflet to give any honest information, to the general public.

 

So please don’t say the general public should have done their researched, it was just not available at the time, and even if it had been it was not made available to the public because government did not want the country to know what they were signing up to.

P1000467.jpg

Edited by Conniff
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If you are under 50 you won’t remember the convolutions surrounding

British entry into the European Union. Even fewer will know the true story

of what was going on behind the scenes.

 

Having scanned the internet I am sure some of you will know that the

UK first applied in 1961 but two vetoes by de Gaulle, kept us out for over

a decade. (pity we could not have been kept out permanently).

Our entry was finally pushed through, without a referendum, in 1972

by Heath’s Conservative government. But the issue was always filled with

controversy particularly in the Labour party then led by Wilson.

 

Wilson had famously shown his attitude to the truth when in 1967 he devalued

the pound but claimed that this did not mean that ‘the pound in our pocket’ had

been devalued! For a former Oxford University economics lecturer, it was both

literally and figuratively an unbelievable position to take. (It is now regularly

used to illustrate a politician trying to argue that black is white!) This

approach characterised what happened over Britain’s European Community membership.

 

The British establishment knew perfectly well that the long-term implications for

British democracy and self-government were profound and damaging to the country.

 

Papers not then publicly available tell us that the government’s own

expert legal advisers were clear about what would be given away.

 

See my thread No 150—An internal government memo—Foreign office papers.

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and the SNP have now formally declared what everyone really knew, that whatever happens, while the SNP are in power, Scotland will continue to seek independence whether the UK stays in the EU or not.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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and the SNP have now formally declared what everyone really knew, that whatever happens, while the SNP are in power, Scotland will continue to seek independence whether the UK stays in the EU or not.

 

Cameron is an idiot. The Brexit vote has wider political implications which could prove to be a nightmare, if people vote for Brexit.

 

Retired General Mike Jackson discusses some of the issues in the article linked to.

 

N. Irish Unionists are for Brexit, because they see it as cementing N.Irelands future within the UK. There would not be the EU considerations, where they are cooperating fully with the Irish government who would be backed by the EU. If the troubles start up again in N.Ireland, it will be the sense of national identity being stirred up again, as to whether people look to Dublin or London.

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Cameron is an idiot. The Brexit vote has wider political implications which could prove to be a nightmare, if people vote for Brexit.

 

Retired General Mike Jackson discusses some of the issues in the article linked to.

 

N. Irish Unionists are for Brexit, because they see it as cementing N.Irelands future within the UK. There would not be the EU considerations, where they are cooperating fully with the Irish government who would be backed by the EU. If the troubles start up again in N.Ireland, it will be the sense of national identity being stirred up again, as to whether people look to Dublin or London.

 

 

and why are these real issues not being laid out in detail by the various camps?

The camps arguing that they are speculative is ridiculous as all future events are speculative by their very nature. Some can be seen to be more likely than others if all the relevant facts are available.

So lets see the current facts and the reasoning behind the rhetoric.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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What a load of cobblers, this has absolutely nothing to do with Europe. This is just a rant by the biggest (edit) that has ever been in our armed services. I suggest you go find his history and take a look at that before you believe a single word he says and start quoting the rubbish he spouts.

Edited by Andyorch
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What a load of cobblers, this has absolutely nothing to do with Europe. This is just a rant by the biggest Tosser that has ever been in our armed services. I suggest you go find his history and take a look at that before you believe a single word he says and start quoting the rubbish he spouts.

 

Jeremy Clarkson is also in the Sunday Times today advising that he supports remain, for various reasons including security of the UK.

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Be careful there. He will probably thump you if you vote differently to him :)

 

What is this 'Security' they keep talking about ????

 

 

A new Belt I bought to keep me trousers up = Security!/?

 

 

They need one to Belt Up!!

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What a load of cobblers, this has absolutely nothing to do with Europe. This is just a rant by the biggest Tosser that has ever been in our armed services. I suggest you go find his history and take a look at that before you believe a single word he says and start quoting the rubbish he spouts.

 

Further to my last, you are obviously for 'out' as you only linked to one side, the out side of that article. Jackson is, as I said before, a tosser and knows absolutely nothing about anything.

What you failed to mention was the article on the very next page:

 

The proud isle that floated free... and HASN'T sunk! No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe

 

 

I would certainly have more faith in what Greenland had to say than a duffer who was more worried about the bags under his eyes than his troops in Afghanistan.

Edited by Conniff
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Further to my last, you are obviously for 'out' as you only linked to one side, the out side of that article. Jackson is, as I said before, a tosser and knows absolutely nothing about anything.

What you failed to mention was the article on the very next page:

 

The proud isle that floated free... and HASN'T sunk! No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe

 

Greenland former PM Lars-Emil Johansen led campaign to leave EU in 1982

They voted in a referendum to leave the union in highly symbolic move

He has no regrets of his choice as Britain weighs up whether to follow suit

 

Link

 

 

 

 

Sadly it is now 2016 and far more damage has been done to this country in the years since 1982. We have seen our fishing industry all but disappear - how long would it take to restore this ?

 

I guess the only good thing is that we never fully integrated by accepting the Euro as our currency.

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Further to my last, you are obviously for 'out' as you only linked to one side, the out side of that article. Jackson is, as I said before, a tosser and knows absolutely nothing about anything.

What you failed to mention was the article on the very next page:

 

The proud isle that floated free... and HASN'T sunk! No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe

 

Greenland former PM Lars-Emil Johansen led campaign to leave EU in 1982

They voted in a referendum to leave the union in highly symbolic move

He has no regrets of his choice as Britain weighs up whether to follow suit

 

Link

 

I would certainly have more faith in what Greenland had to say than a duffer who was more worried about the bags under his eyes than his troops in Afghanistan.

 

 

Greenland/Denmark is hardly a relevant reference point is it.

Greenland as an example is more like the 'City' of London voting to leave the EU because of all the regulations they don't like about the EU while still getting all the EU benefits and support from the UK which is still in the EU - while paying sod all back in to either the UK or EU.

 

.... very like

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Obviously you haven't read the post and just glanced at it, It has nothing whatsoever about being or not being tied to anyone, it's about choosing to quote only what you want to quote.

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Obviously you haven't read the post and just glanced at it, It has nothing whatsoever about being or not being tied to anyone, it's about choosing to quote only what you want to quote.

 

Try reading the whole post, and linked and related references.

 

Greenland still continued to receive massive support and development payments from the EU via Denmark for starters.

and as a country - the population would fit easily in a large English Town or a handful of reasonably sized English villages.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1207_en.htm

 

Just one example of EU support for 'independent' Greenland.

If the UK got as much EU support per head of population as Greenland, no-one would need to work here.

 

If Greenland didn't get that support, as the UK wouldn't in a Brexit, they would not survive as a developed society.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Even President Obama is coming to the UK next month to join the remain campaign.

 

It seems to me that the remain campaign is growing in strength, when the out campaign has to try to drag in a neutral Queen into the debate.

 

I can only see this campaign getting nasty.

 

Perhaps CAG can be a more civilised place to debate.

 

In regard to security, some believe EU as a bloc has a joint obligation in regard to security, whereas it might not work as well if you had 28 independent countries. The UK is a key player in the defence of Europe and there is concern that Europe as a whole would be weaker if there were to be Brexit. Putin does not like having EU increasing in size and close to Russias border. If the EU is weakened by Brexit, Putin may approve of this.

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Further to my last, you are obviously for 'out' as you only linked to one side, the out side of that article. Jackson is, as I said before, a tosser and knows absolutely nothing about anything.

What you failed to mention was the article on the very next page:

 

The proud isle that floated free... and HASN'T sunk! No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe

 

Greenland former PM Lars-Emil Johansen led campaign to leave EU in 1982

They voted in a referendum to leave the union in highly symbolic move

He has no regrets of his choice as Britain weighs up whether to follow suit

 

Link

 

I would certainly have more faith in what Greenland had to say than a duffer who was more worried about the bags under his eyes than his troops in Afghanistan.

 

I have read and understand BOTH those articles.

Try it yourself.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Even President Obama is coming to the UK next month to join the remain campaign.

 

In regard to security, some believe EU as a bloc has a joint obligation in regard to security, whereas it might not work as well if you had 28 independent countries. The UK is a key player in the defence of Europe and there is concern that Europe as a whole would be weaker if there were to be Brexit. Putin does not like having EU increasing in size and close to Russias border. If the EU is weakened by Brexit, Putin may approve of this.

 

Whatever Putin or Obama approves of is far lower on my list of reasons than the good of the UK as a whole.

 

Obama/USA wants its strong say in the EU via the UK

Putin is undoubtedly as you state - just as the USA was with Cuba and IS with southern Americas countries.

 

Maybe its best for the world that the UK stays united and in the EU (and I think that is the case), but my question, and I dont know the answer, is 'Is the UK better off in the EU' at least for the next 25 years?

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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People seem to be getting muddled between Europe and Nato, they are two separate things completely.

 

The UKs part in both are highly relevant to the in/out decision, and YOU Conniff are the one who threw up the Greenland report as a very poor counter to the military security linked report, presumably because you didn't properly read or understand either report.

 

If you wanted to counter the initial link, there are some glaring questions regarding some of Gen Jacksons statements, particularly regarding the UK's membership of the security council, but YOU probably wouldn't like where examining those 'issues' with his statements would likely take us - and would of course require some effort and comprehension on your part.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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