The European Union.....In or Out?

[unclebulgaria67]

Where did you hear that ?

 

A link please ??

 

There was speculation in the Daily Mail and elsewhere that Cameron was facing pressure to postpone, because at a time of increased security threats affecting Europe, it was not a great time to hold a referendum. But no sources close to Cameron were quoted.

[tobyjugg2]

There was speculation in the Daily Mail and elsewhere that Cameron was facing pressure to postpone, because at a time of increased security threats affecting Europe, it was not a great time to hold a referendum. But no sources close to Cameron were quoted.

 

 

Yes its something reported by a newspaper which could be called speculation - as everything can be until confirmed - and often beyond that.

 

Given the situation with terrorist attacks it would make some sense, but given the total lack of any real. solid information on the In/Out issues - probably the real questions are

1. Would it make Cameron look bad having to delay - yes

2. Would he gain more momentum for the in or out?

3. What are Camerons real desires in this area.

 

Which beggars the question : Do any of them actually KNOW anything and are deliberately withholding it, or are they all as clueless and/or self serving as Boris clearly is.

 

(Although Boris has long stated his real issue with the EU as reported last year in his Der Spiegal interview)

 

"We don't need the European Union to tell us how many hours we can work, we don't need all this health and safety stuff."

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/spiegel-interview-with-london-mayor-boris-johnson-a-1047789.html

[unclebulgaria67]

Personally i would cancel the referendum. it is bad for the UK to look divisive in the current world we are in.

[Conniff]

That's not democratic, that only happens under dictatorships and Gordon Brown.

[tobyjugg2]

Personally i would cancel the referendum. it is bad for the UK to look divisive in the current world we are in.

 

I disagree.

We are clearly seeing who is and is not giving straight facts to the public.

and it appears to be no-one is giving straight facts.

 

It was an opportunity for politicians to show they know and share our concerns and that they had the answers. PHUUUUT

 

 

Its interesting that the brexit crowd are (almost certainly accidentally) showing that 'figures' show a TENFOLD (10x) return on the cost of entry, (per annum approx £340 per household cost vs approx £3000 return per househod)

and that losing health and safety and work limit laws is one of the cornerstones of the Brexit campaigners 'benefits'.

 

http://brexitthemovie.uk/brexit-the-debate/

[citizenB]

First of all, I thought we didn't believe anything the Daily Mail writes, or speculates and 2nd.. Why is Cameron so determined that we stay in, after all, he claims not be running for Prime Minister again, so I cant see why he would be concerned one way or another ?

[tobyjugg2]

First of all, I thought we didn't believe anything the Daily Mail writes, or speculates and 2nd.. Why is Cameron so determined that we stay in, after all, he claims not be running for Prime Minister again,

 

so I cant see why he would be concerned one way or another ?

 

I cant see he is concerned the way he is waffling. Lots of 'we are better off' - take this short sentence as proof'

[Conniff]

First of all, I thought we didn't believe anything the Daily Mail writes, or speculates and 2nd.. Why is Cameron so determined that we stay in, after all, he claims not be running for Prime Minister again, so I cant see why he would be concerned one way or another ?

 

That's only when it suites and to attempt to get one up on someone else they make that claim.

 

Maybe it's that Cameron has lined himself up a nice little earner but that nice little earner won't exist unless we stay in.

[Old Cogger]

back to the workhouse days, we even had them in the 50s ( ten shillings a week 52 hour enough said) believe you me what a change after 70s joining

[Conniff]

back to the workhouse days, we even had them in the 50s ( ten shillings a week 52 hour enough said) believe you me what a change after 70s joining

 

So are you saying that all today will be cancelled, people will be forced to accept a £1 per week and do 52 hours ???

[tobyjugg2]

back to the workhouse days, we even had them in the 50s ( ten shillings a week 52 hour enough said) believe you me what a change after 70s joining

 

I think that the main out campaigners would love that to return.

 

The sad conclusion is that neither the in or out is being run on whats best for the people of this nation, but just whats best for the various pressure groups.

 

It seems that if Boris and the out campaigners get their out vote, then the out would most likely be on their terms, which is NOT the sort of terms I would want out of the EU on.

So whether I would want out of the EU or not, and my opinion is by no means set, I don't see that any of the potential GOOD that could happen for the nations populace would come of it, just whatever was good for Boris and his billionaire business mates and a path of return to the workhouse days.

[Conniff]

I think that the main out campaigners would love that to return.

 

The sad conclusion is that neither the in or out is being run on whats best for the people of this nation, but just whats best for the various pressure groups.

 

It seems that if Boris and the out campaigners get their out vote, then the out would most likely be on their terms, which is NOT the sort of terms I would want out of the EU on.

So whether I would want out of the EU or not, and my opinion is by no means set, I don't see that any of the potential GOOD that could happen for the nations populace would come of it, just whatever was good for Boris and his billionaire business mates and a path of return to the workhouse days.

 

Here we go with the silly posts again. Can you substantiate that ??

[unclebulgaria67]

Here we go with the silly posts again. Can you substantiate that ??

 

Only silly, if you disagree with them.

 

According to a Times article, the threat of Brexit is leading to Brits returning home, after living in mainland Europe. They are worried about how their lifes will be affected. UK government pays about 3000 euros a year to the foreign governments, where pensioners currently reside, so they can access local healthcare. I have family in Spain and they know elderly Brits who receive free local healthcare because of this arrangement and sometimes much more than 3000 euros is spent on them. After Brexit, if this arrangement ends, which Farage said it might end or be subject to changes, then some of these elderly people will head back to the UK.

 

I think that Brexit would be very messy and take years to sort out. It could severly damage the UK and the EU. Which is why i think those advocating Brexit have let their nationalistic views overide any practical considerations. The UK population will massively increase, with EU mainland citizens without jobs flocking to the UK, as well as Brits returning home. The UK would have to block all EU immigration straightaway, where they don't have work, otherwise they risk huge numbers coming. Plus there will be large numbers of British citizenship applications, so people guarantee right to stay here.

[tobyjugg2]

Here we go with the silly posts again. Can you substantiate that ??

 

Already have in the link to Boris' spiegal interview, where working hours, conditions, and health and safety were one of the very very few things Boris has firmly stated as his being strongly against the EU - the rest he was pretty 'C'est la vie

 

and also the cornerstone of the Brexit camps desires as shown in the Brexit camps comparisons. also already linked

 

Now you Conniff (as if)

[Conniff]

So where has it been said, let alone put into print, that Britain will return to workhouses and 52 hour weeks and cut peoples bay to a couple of pounds and who said it ??

[tobyjugg2]

So where has it been said, let alone put into print, that Britain will return to workhouses and 52 hour weeks and cut peoples bay to a couple of pounds and who said it ??

 

One place is right here in this thread Conniff, Right Here,

 

and clearly by someone who read the information taken from Boris's (and others of similar ilke) own words,

and who understood what and where those laws which so stick in the craw of Boris & crew brought us from.

 

Its then a simple matter of understanding that reversing those laws, reverses the path back toward the horrible place we came from at such immense cost to so many.

[buckthorn]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-may-delay-eu-referendum-until-2017-to-buy-time-for-concessions-from-european-leaders-a6680856.html

 

 

 

Tobyjug your link is totally spurious, as it was made

prior to Cameron’s so called negotiations on our

membership of this undemocratic EU.

 

The date of the statement in the independent is

Tuesday 6th October 2015, which is months prior to, Cameron coming back from Brussels with his so called deal, date 20th February 2016.

“Once again smoke and mirrors” (you are always saying, and I quote you:-

Thread No;280. We are clearly seeing who is and is not giving straight facts to the public.

and it appears to be no-one is giving straight facts.

If the cap fits you should wear it.

[tobyjugg2]

Tobyjug your link is totally spurious, as it was made

prior to Cameron’s so called negotiations on our

membership of this undemocratic EU.

 

The date of the statement in the independent is

Tuesday 6th October 2015, which is months prior to, Cameron coming back from Brussels with his so called deal, date 20th February 2016.

“Once again smoke and mirrors” (you are always saying, and I quote you:-

Thread No;280. We are clearly seeing who is and is not giving straight facts to the public.

and it appears to be no-one is giving straight facts.

If the cap fits you should wear it.

 

This is regarding a possible change of Referendum date.

 

but as i was agreeing with a possible outcome of a developing situation, not as a definite which I quite clearly qualified as a possibility (which as linked was also apparently posited by other Tories),

I fail to see your point.

 

I agreed with the OP as a possible situation, probably depending most on how bad the terrorist events get.

I assume you completely missed the point - or simply dont care about the actual point.

 

 

Why didn't you simply say something like

I dont think thats likely due to xxxxxx

 

I quite possibly would have agreed with you.

[buckthorn]

Why would you post a link when it is not relevant to your statement/thread??

[Conniff]

One place is right here in this thread Conniff, Right Here,

 

and clearly by someone who read the information taken from Boris's (and others of similar ilke) own words,

and who understood what and where those laws which so stick in the craw of Boris & crew brought us from.

 

Its then a simple matter of understanding that reversing those laws, reverses the path back toward the horrible place we came from at such immense cost to so many.

 

So you recon some bloke called Boris is going to change all the laws of this country, your post just get worse and worse.

 

Absolutely no proof of a single thing you are going on about, links from any old rubbish from around the world that seem to fit your weird reasoning. You haven't a clue about anything.

 

As for this rubbish about a change in the referendum date, that also is just something you made up.

 

And the 'possibility' excuse - it's also possible that Russia will invade Tasmania.

Edited March 29, 2016 by honeybee13
Pejorative remark removed.

[tobyjugg2]

So you recon some bloke called Boris is going to change all the laws of this country

 

That IS one of the corner-stones of the out campaign, as repeatedly stated and shown in the links

That our elected officials make our laws without interference from anyone else?

 

 

Are you denying what Boris has actually said?

I showed the spiegel example (he has said the same thing repeatedly) as it gives a verbatim transcript - no 'interpretation'

 

Here's the quote of Boris's words from the link (he has often said similar)

"We don't need the European Union to tell us how many hours we can work, we don't need all this health and safety stuff."

Which is also something of a cornerstone of the out campaigners, but usually more politically vague so as to avoid highlighting the real issue.

 

 

I wish the newspapers showed the evidence and conclusion as conclusively and compellingly as has been done here.

old coggers conclusion also seemed inescapable to me given the evidence.

 

 

 

Still your turn to try and refute the evidence or even any of the reasoned speculation with something more than bluster.

... or just continue with bluster as expected

I'll re-up the conclusions and evidence nearer the date to ensure it isnt lost in your flames - provided some terror attack doesn't delay it,

plus any more that might come to light in the meantime.

 

[tobyjugg2]

So summary of issues as i see them

 

Cost

Even the brexit crew (as linked above) show approx £3,000 per household return for £340 per household outlay. Almost a tenfold return on investment, and that ignores the ease of market, holidays, flights, living abroad, etc etc.

 

Given that as a member with rebates the UK has one of the lowest costs per capita of all members, it is extremely unlikely that the UK could negotiate better terms for trade with the EU from outside the EU.

Anyone who thinks we could should give some evidence why. Common sense and existing deals dictate otherwise.

 

Trade with EU and rest of world

Would need to be negotiated.

Baring in mind that it might be a much smaller England renegotiating, I think we would be VERY lucky to break even on this.

 

 

Security

Security services co-operation between a brexit UK and the EU would undoubtedly continue broadly as it is.

 

There would almost certainly be no improvement in out border/immigration situation as free movement with the EU is a primary driver in the EU. If we wished to trade with the EU, we would almost certainly need to agree to this.

The only way to manage the migration issue is as a member while the situation is hot.

having said that, the current 'solution' with Turkey is a complete joke.

 

 

Additional factor is that we would have at least one EU member attached to the UK - Eire.

Add to this that on Brexit Scotland and Wales would almost certainly seek independence and rejoin the EU, meaning that we would end up in the same position as other EU countries, with multiple land joined EU borders.

 

 

Break up of the UK

Devastating to our nation, its prosperity and its place in the world.

England would be a much smaller country, and would struggle to maintain or transfer its nuclear deterrent with Scotland as a confirmed nuclear free nation as it states it would be.

We would also have to negotiate with Scotland for passage of our warships through Scotland (and possible Wales) territorial waters.

Our GDP as England would be significantly reduced.

It is the one thing which could put our place on the security council at risk.

 

Lawmaking/Sovereignty

Well, when you get down to it :

Who do we think would protect the populous interests and basic human rights more?

The EU? or whoever happens to get a majority in the UK? (probably right wing tories on the crest of a Brexit)

and at worst, whats the difference between some UK lawmakers who have little connection to the populace, and some lawmakers in Brussels?

+ we would still have to abide by many EU laws and regulations to trade with them.

 

Sovereignty as sold in the referendum campaigns seems to me to be greatly over stated

 

 

Thats it so far.

But writing it down has convinced me that as yet I can identify no gain whatsoever in Britains exiting the EU.

[unclebulgaria67]

I am with tobyjuggs on this. The Brexit supporters are mostly English nationalists who see the chance of creating an offshore independent economy, where they can relax some of the laws the EU forces on government and employers. They will look to relax laws applying to Banks and hedge funds, so they can trade with less scrutiny. There will be an attempt to turn the UK into more of a tax haven than it is already. This might not benefit the ordinary people in this country.

[honeybee13]

Then Bank of England has warned about rising credit costs and further weakening of the £ if brexit happens.

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-boe-idUKKCN0WV11Y

 

HB

[Consumer dude]

If we stay or if we go, some one somewhere will make money out of it..