The European Union.....In or Out?

[Old Cogger]

some people are incapable of sussing things out for themselves, so are sheep and follow the other sheep, i.e. I do not like being told what to do in law = well this countries laws are antique in nature, and the government want to take away all your right ( what little there is left), so use your head or get a calculator.

[unclebulgaria67]

I have worked out two things.

 

1) UK is a small island and punches beyond its weight mostly because of history/language. As time goes by, with massive population increases mostly in Asia and Africa, the UK as an independent nation trying to trade with the world is going to be more difficult. It is probably better to be part of an EU trading bloc.

 

2) Migration levels are unlikely to change much following Brexit, because it is highly likely freedom of movement will continue, as part of having full access to the market on a tariff free basis. There is a chance of a sudden influx of people after an out vote, as those interested in coming to the UK might be prompted to make the move. UK citizenship applications from EU mainland citizens living in the UK will increase.

[citizenB]

As has been pointed out frequently - we are a small island nation. Which, over the past 20 years or so has been changed radically - with the citizens of the UK having to adapt and change with no obligation on those wishing to come here, for whatever reason, to adapt and change with us. That is not a generalisation - but for the majority of migrants to this country, the minute they have their foot on our soil are wanting things done the way THEY are used to !

 

You might want to have a read of an article from 2002, which covers the Ugandan Asians that were forced to leave Uganda in 1972. One thing that simply lifts off the page is the acknowledgment the Asians were party to their own downfall. Aside from which, the larger amount of those expelled (80,000) 30,000 by far the largest group, came to Britain.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/2399549.stm

 

 

But some have taken the view that however wrong the actions of Idi Amin, the Asian community did not exactly endear itself to Ugandans.

 

Yasmin Alibhai Brown is a newspaper columnist. She and her family left Uganda in 1972.

 

Looking back, she says that she still misses her homeland but also loves London, where she now lives

 

"Many Ugandan Asians have similar ambiguous views - that so much was lost and even more gained when Amin banished us from a country we had helped build".

 

She says that the Asians did little to share their wealth and skills, they sent money out of the country illegally and "most Asians were deeply racist, unable to imagine marrying Africans and living with them as equals".

 

She says that the president also reminded them that relatively few Asians had been killed in Uganda but that half a million Ugandans died in the wars that began during Mr Amin's period in power.

 

She concluded that when looking back on the expulsion of the Asians, people needed to remember the truth about what happened.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/11/bradford-stabbing-prompts-uk-asians-to-warn-of-racism-towards-black-people

 

Another article from 2015 where Asians are pretty much advised to look among themselves with regards to racism - against black people !

 

I noticed during some of the interviews that were done by the BBC, a lot of Asian people were also seriously against the taking of more migrants - and it didnt seem to matter whether they were asylum seekers or economic ?

 

It is my belief that migration, is one of, if not the main issue, that is being given as a reason for those wishing to exit the EU. Resolve that and you will likely find that people will not concern themselves about anything else.

[Conniff]

It is probably better to be part of an EU trading bloc.

 

Trading bloc yes. That is what we were taken into, it is now our Government setting our laws, rules and regulations.

 

See, Hitler is still alive but he now wears nothing but Primark jackets and has had a breast implant.

[unclebulgaria67]

Very thought provoking CB.

 

The way i look at it is, that migration has been happening forever. It will continue forever, whether people like it or not.

 

The worlds population has trebled since world war 2 and will hit 10.5 billion by 2050.

 

Donald Trump wants to build a new wall across the Mexican border. It looks like the EU will agree to build a border surrounding the EU to stop migration. Turkey is being asked to take migrants back and ships are being sent to stop the boats crossing to Greece. Australia deports migrants back to the country of origin straightaway or if not possible to offshore islands to be kept in refugee sites.

 

Migration will get worse because of climate conditions, water and food shortage. Even within western countries there is significant migration of citizens looking for work and affordable housing. In the US, there are apparently several million living life on the road, sleeping in hostels, cars, with the number of charity food outlets increasing all the time. I have seen documentaries showing American families sleeping in charity run hostels, community halls, receiving free meals.

 

Cameron picked a very bad time for a referendum, because quite a lot will vote purely based on migration and looking to close the borders. This probably will not happen, with borders staying fully open to EU citizens, as voting Brexit is unlikely to change things.

[unclebulgaria67]

Trading bloc yes. That is what we were taken into, it is now our Government setting our laws, rules and regulations.

 

See, Hitler is still alive but he now wears nothing but Primark jackets and has had a breast implant.

 

Don't get the Hitler gag.

 

Apparently he had a micro penis, which might account for his bad temper.

[san_d]

Trading bloc yes.

 

The preamble "ever closer union" was already in the 1957 treaty of Rome. When Britain joined the EEC in 1973, the preamble was already there. When voters voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, they voted to agree with that preamble. No excuses can be taken.

 

The bigots who rant about a presumed dictatorship of the EU, are happy to clean for the queen, an unelected millionaire who is actually half German.

[Conniff]

Don't get the Hitler gag.

 

Apparently he had a micro penis, which might account for his bad temper.

 

I forget the bit about changing his name to Mrs Merkel. You must get the Primark bit, have you ever seen her in anything else but those cheap nasty jackets, she even wore one to a formal dinner where all the ladies were dressed up to the nines and the men wore bow ties.

[unclebulgaria67]

The preamble "ever closer union" was already in the 1957 treaty of Rome. When Britain joined the EEC in 1973, the preamble was already there. When voters voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, they voted to agree with that preamble. No excuses can be taken.

 

The bigots who rant about a presumed dictatorship of the EU, are happy to clean for the queen, an unelected millionaire who is actually half German.

 

Yes Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher and all Prime Ministers since have understood the situation. The Tory party have been split on the EU mostly since Thatcher changed her mind in the late 1980's and encouraged what John Major called bast*rds. Then in opposition it just festered away with consituency parties and membership being mostly hostile to the EU. At every party conference, ministers had to sound Eurosceptic, even if they were in favour.

 

I am a republican who likes the Queen, but would prefer an elected President to follow.

[tobyjugg2]

The thing with 'migration' is there are two different aspects to it which seem to be avoided.

 

There are the illegal migrants, often referred to as refugees, which the UK does not have to take (in or out the EU) and actually - neither did the EU

 

Then there are the EU members which we do have to accept while we are in the EU, and which will grow, and if Turkey gets its way, will include them as soon as they can wangle it.

[unclebulgaria67]

I forget the bit about changing his name to Mrs Merkel. You must get the Primark bit, have you ever seen her in anything else but those cheap nasty jackets, she even wore one to a formal dinner where all the ladies were dressed up to the nines and the men wore bow ties.

 

I have a thing for German women. Don't know what it is, but there are exceptions.

 

I think Farage is married to a German lady, who at one time was employed as his secretary using his EU MEP expenses. Kind of ironic ,

[unclebulgaria67]

The thing with 'migration' is there are two different aspects to it which seem to be avoided.

 

There are the illegal migrants, often referred to as refugees, which the UK does not have to take in or out the EU, and actually - neither did the EU

 

Then there are the EU members which we do have to accept while we are in the EU, and which will grow, and if Turkey gets its way, will include them as soon as they can wangle it.

 

Too much opposition for Turkey to join.

[Conniff]

Turkey continually apply but the way they are going it's a no hope in hells chance for them. Perhaps we could sell our membership certificate to them cheap.

[tobyjugg2]

Too much opposition for Turkey to join.

 

At the moment yes, and thank goodness for that, but that may change, and there are a number of other applicants.

The EU intends to grow.

[citizenB]

I have a thing for German women. Don't know what it is, but there are exceptions.

 

I think Farage is married to a German lady, who at one time was employed as his secretary using his EU MEP expenses. Kind of ironic ,

 

My paternal grandfather married a German lady after his first wife died. She was a very nice person , sadly this caused a huge rift within the family and when he died, Nana Gita was made to feel so uncomfortable, she returned to her birth Country.

[unclebulgaria67]

My Dads family house was destroyed by a German flying bomb and it killed one of his brothers. My Dad had only just cycled away from the house. Then a few years later another brother died while working as an RAF pilot in an accident. Within about 5 years of the end of WW2, my Dad was stationed in Germany on military service, as the British Army was guarding the border with Russia and also to help rebuilding Germany. Keeping peace in Europe was one of the reasons the European project was started. Also it was strength in numbers against Russia during the cold war period.

[tobyjugg2]

Last nights newsnight is worth a watch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b073hl11/newsnight-07032016

 

First part is on the migration crisis and Turkey negotiations

 

Although short, it says:

 

Turkey coast guard is not responding - leaving any Greek coast guard reports of ships until they are in Greek waters

 

EU chappie saying they dont see Turkey as being suitable for EU membership for at least 3-5 years, and that Turkey would need to change.

 

Same EU minister saying majority of migrants so far are young men

 

and not least it shows the immensely uplifting hospitality (as always) of the Greek people.

[unclebulgaria67]

Turkey already has a large number of migrants and of course it will be young men who migrate more.

 

If the UK had a large number of migrants wanting to leave the UK, do people think the UK would be trying to stop them leaving ?

[tobyjugg2]

Turkey already has a large number of migrants and of course it will be young men who migrate more.

 

If the UK had a large number of migrants wanting to leave the UK, do people think the UK would be trying to stop them leaving ?

 

I would hope so if they were being paid 3B euros and had agreed to do so, even if we did then say 'we want another 3B and some other stuff'

 

(The second part of that newsnight is a female Turkish MP on the censorship arrest and take over of Press and free speech issues in Turkey - aka what issues?)

[tobyjugg2]

I would hope so if they were being paid 3B euros and had agreed to do so, even if we did then say 'we want another 3B and some other stuff'

 

(The second part of that newsnight is a female Turkish MP on the censorship arrest and take over of Press and free speech issues in Turkey - aka what issues?)

 

I think anyone applying western values to Turkey and expecting them to honour deals is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The simple fact is Turkey is a major instigator of the cause of the migration and continues to seek those same goals

 

 

Look at the latest EU deal with Turkey.

 

More money

- Understandable, but I think the EU should be giving all this money to Greece to manage the siuation on behalf of the EU. Greece would benefit from the cash influx and would be on board for EU goals. The refugees would also be near Syria for return at the end of the conflict. Genuine refugee applications could then be properly processed while also helping an EU country in need of economic support.

 

Syrian refugees taken from Turkey for each non Syrian/non refugee returned to Turkey

Well Turkey will be onboard for that so it could depopulate Syria of Syrians (making them an EU problem) making way for Turkish migration into Syria.

But who could define who is and is not Syrian?

What about Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan all of whom are in similar situations?

Let alone Balkan and Pakistani migrants?

[citizenB]

I think Greece had already shown they were not trustworthy with finances - so would they use any money provided to them for the benefit of the migrants, for the migrants ?

 

It was inevitable that Turkey would pretty much blackmail the EU into providing more cash or other benefits.

[Consumer dude]

The simple solution and as good as any is to get out of the EU, which is undemocratic anyway, secure our borders and operate a visa entry system..

[tobyjugg2]

I think Greece had already shown they were not trustworthy with finances - so would they use any money provided to them for the benefit of the migrants, for the migrants ?

 

It was inevitable that Turkey would pretty much blackmail the EU into providing more cash or other benefits.

 

I think the government was not wise with money and the EU was undoubtedly complicit in the misrepresentation of Greece and others financial status.

This seems to me no different and far less than the UK government entrenched affair with the financial sector.

 

Whatever the case with that, I think that 6Billion euro would be far better and more appropriately used by Greece than Turkey,

as would the migrants/refugees themselves.

[Guest]

Politicians politicking

apparently spain has chipped in with a 'threat' re gibralter. the more these politicking 'threats' come in, the more its an out vote....

[buckthorn]

The preamble "ever closer union" was already in the 1957 treaty of Rome. When Britain joined the EEC in 1973, the preamble was already there.

When voters voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, they voted to agree with that preamble. No excuses can be taken.

 

The bigots who rant about a presumed dictatorship of the EU, are happy to clean for the queen, an unelected millionaire who is actually half German.

 

The population of this country were not told in 1975 what the result of joining the Common Market (it was for trade) would be, they were lied to and kept in the dark. Just like the country is today by Cameron and his cronies.

An internal government memorandum said;

 

“I enclose a draft on sovereignty…We are rather worried about the impact on Parliamentary opinion…the fact of the primacy of community legislation cannot be disguised. But I feel that there is a case for omitting it altogether.”

 

A British Foreign Office paper is quite explicit;

“Community law is required to take precedence over domestic law: i.e. if a Community law conflicts with a statute, it is the statute which has to give way….the community system requires that such Community Law as applies directly as law in this country should by virtue of its own legal force as law in this country prevail over conflicting national legislation.”

(FCO 30/1048, National Archives)

 

So when, in the October 1974 General Election, Harold Wilson’s Labour Party manifesto included a pledge to renegotiate terms for Britain’s membership and then hold a referendum, (now were have I heard that before) the loss of sovereignty was an issue about which not merely the entire ‘yes’ campaign wanted to keep quit but also the Government itself. (we could be talking about this referendum)

Edited March 8, 2016 by Conniff
add - tidied up formatting - added quotes