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Speeding attending court

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Looking for some help,

 

Wife was caught speeding doing 51 in a 40 zone.

 

She has asked to attend court as they had the time at 8.46 (photo evidence) however where the photo was taken was at least 6 miles from where she works and starts work at 9am.

 

The road was down to 1 lane due to the cycle lane being built and traffic was at peak time when she set off.

 

She signed in at work for 8.59am and her case is that she couldn't have been pictured at the time stated as it would have been impossible to get the 6 miles in the allotted time they apparently caught her speeding.

 

Not sure how this would hold up in court? I have warned her myself that the court could look at the view that the reason she got to work at the time she signed in for was because she was speeding.

 

She has been driving for over 25 years and never had any speeding fines just lately she has had a spate of bad luck. in the last 12 months.

 

She was caught doing 35 in a 30 by a road side camera and didn't notice the sign had changed from 60 to 30 in about 20 feet it was only me in the car with her at the time that suddenly clicked and said I'm sure that said 30 and we were crossing over the white lines as I said that and she hit the breaks but it was too late got the flashes from the camera.

 

She took the speed awareness course for that one.

 

She then got spotted by a mobile camera in Oct doing 48 in a 40 and took the points for that one. giving her 3 points

 

She then got caught on the same stretch of road in Dec doing 51 in a 40 and this is the one she is going to argue over with the time.

 

Start of Jan this year she was court doing 58 in a 50 after over taking a car doing 20mph and didn't notice it was a police van as there was no markings on it as it was facing forward. however when the letter came there was no photo evidence present as stated on the letter as she had slowed to 40 after overtaking the car and this could have been present on the image.

 

I've asked the police for the photo but they said they didn't need to provide this as evidence for her speed but would produce it in court if they needed to. I have suggested that she just take the points for this one as well.

 

This will take her to 6 points (not inc) the one she is going to court over that would take her to 9 points.

 

She is worried and annoyed at the same time that in 25 years she's never had a speeding ticket and all these have come at once and scared she might lose her license.

 

This would probably cause her to lose her job as couldn't get across the 7 miles journey to get our daughter to Nursery in time for her to start her job at 9am as 2 buses are needed to get where she works and in peak time wouldn't make it on time.

 

Just wondering if anyone has gone through anything similar and could offer some advice.

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Looking for some help,

 

Wife was caught speeding doing 51 in a 40 zone.

 

She has asked to attend court as they had the time at 8.46 (photo evidence) however where the photo was taken was at least 6 miles from where she works and starts work at 9am.

 

The road was down to 1 lane due to the cycle lane being built and traffic was at peak time when she set off.

 

She signed in at work for 8.59am and her case is that she couldn't have been pictured at the time stated as it would have been impossible to get the 6 miles in the allotted time they apparently caught her speeding.

 

Not sure how this would hold up in court? I have warned her myself that the court could look at the view that the reason she got to work at the time she signed in for was because she was speeding.

 

She has been driving for over 25 years and never had any speeding fines just lately she has had a spate of bad luck. in the last 12 months.

 

She was caught doing 35 in a 30 by a road side camera and didn't notice the sign had changed from 60 to 30 in about 20 feet it was only me in the car with her at the time that suddenly clicked and said I'm sure that said 30 and we were crossing over the white lines as I said that and she hit the breaks but it was too late got the flashes from the camera.

 

She took the speed awareness course for that one.

 

She then got spotted by a mobile camera in Oct doing 48 in a 40 and took the points for that one. giving her 3 points

 

She then got caught on the same stretch of road in Dec doing 51 in a 40 and this is the one she is going to argue over with the time.

 

Start of Jan this year she was court doing 58 in a 50 after over taking a car doing 20mph and didn't notice it was a police van as there was no markings on it as it was facing forward. however when the letter came there was no photo evidence present as stated on the letter as she had slowed to 40 after overtaking the car and this could have been present on the image.

 

I've asked the police for the photo but they said they didn't need to provide this as evidence for her speed but would produce it in court if they needed to. I have suggested that she just take the points for this one as well.

 

This will take her to 6 points (not inc) the one she is going to court over that would take her to 9 points.

 

She is worried and annoyed at the same time that in 25 years she's never had a speeding ticket and all these have come at once and scared she might lose her license.

 

This would probably cause her to lose her job as couldn't get across the 7 miles journey to get our daughter to Nursery in time for her to start her job at 9am as 2 buses are needed to get where she works and in peak time wouldn't make it on time.

 

Just wondering if anyone has gone through anything similar and could offer some advice.

 

I suspect they'll be able to produce the calibration certificate for the camera to show the speed recorded and timings are correct.

 

Can your wife show that the clock used to give the time written down (when signing in for work) was correct?

 

I suspect they'll be able to show an audit trail demonstrating the timings on the images can't have been altered.

 

Can your wife show that the sign in times can't have been altered?

(Especially given your thread : http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?459872-Office-staff-altering-sign-in-times&p=4860557#post4860557

Where you say that have been altered)

 

So I don't hold out much hope that "camera not an accurate record" is going to work well.......

 

Been driving 25 years with no problems, and now 4 offences in a year (3 since October 2015)

Worked in the school 5 years without problems, but now late for work 15 times since November 2015, sufficient to have now faced first verbal warning.

 

You need to look at the underlying issues causing her to be late (and speed) as otherwise you'll be left looking for loopholes ......

Did the problems with your daughter start (or surface) in / around October 2015?

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Thanks I can see what you are saying. I would have preferred her to just suck up the 9 points and left court out of it and drove like miss daisy till they had cleared but she said she is knows she couldn't have wasn't there at the time stated on that day.

 

The time sheet at her work is just her signing in and can get a copy for that day for when she attends court. I just hope the court take a lenient view.

 

As for the times late these have been happening since November 15 and have been due to the transfer of our daughter from the baby room of the nursery to the 2 year old room she hasn't been settling in so well on some days. this nursery is attached to the school that my wife works at. However she has to sign in after putting her in nursery and not before so this has been the reason for her being late not because she was arriving late in the car she was actually at the school before her starting time.

 

My wife can show times have been altered and get copies of these although I guess this wont have a baring down on the speeding offense only that she can show the court her signing in time on that day as being 8.59am.

 

Would the court bring up the other speeding offenses? I suppose her only other saving grace would be to go into the court shame faced, all apologetic, make them aware of the dangers of speeding and plead her job role and may how she has had a clean record for so long.

 

I appreciate you advice though thanks

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It appears that the driver has a heavy right foot. Also having taken a drivers awareness course has not changed the driving. The Court may look at this and could level a fine to reflect this.

 

I had been driving for 35 years with almost 140k miles a year. I got stopped once in all that time in all of those years.

 

I got a caution. I learnt my lesson. This driver seems to think that speed is acceptable it is not. The penalties for driving offences is on the increase as are the fines and points.

 

Yes the Court will see the previous convictions for speeding. They may consider a ban as well. This is due to the said speeding offences earlier. If they are minded to give a ban where would that leave them for taking the child to school and getting to work?

 

Leave earlier and drive slower before the speed causes an accident... or loss of job... The driver is obviously not aware of dangers of speeding IMHO. ..


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You appear to be making out that my wife is some kind of psycho driver that takes every opportunity to speed at any given time. This is not so and while most people drive over the limit I don't mean 80mph in a 20 zone I'm talking like 36,38 or 40 in a 30 zone as an example. I'm not justifying that it is right I'm saying that most drivers do go over the limit I think it is just unfortunate that she has been caught she doesn't speed everywhere.

 

When she was caught doing 58 in a 50 is was a straight road for at least 2 miles the car infront was doing 20mph and the road was clear both ends so she over took the car. the White van was parked further down the road on the opposite side and looked like an ordinary white van it wasn't till we were ontop of it that it said police on the bonnet with the front of the van having cameras sticking out at the top. but as I said in my post at the top she had overtaken a car and had slowed to 40mph anyway so at what point they took the photo I don't know as the letter that came said there was photo evidence but when I went and checked it was a blank image and said no photo was available.

 

So I suggested she accepted the points for it taking her to 6 points.

 

She needs the car often because her parents aren't very well recently so has been doing a lot of running around for them and my stepson is special needs and often runs him around in the car as he sometimes has a break down traveling around on public transport coupled with the fact that she works around 7-8 miles from where we live and our daughter goes to the same nursery it takes roughly 2 buses and about 1-1 1/2 hours to travel in that time to get there depending on buses and traffic in the morning so loosing her license is going to cause a all host of problems.

 

She has had a clean driving license for over 25 years hence the reason she doesn't speed like a boy racer, in our area it is a 20mph zone but you stand there for 20 mins with a speed camera and I can guarantee every driver in that time would have 3 points on their license so they must all be dangerous drivers that think speeding is acceptable.

 

I don't believe for a second in your 35 years that you have always stuck to what the speed says in an area unless you have some kind of motoring equipment in a company van. I can appreciate some of what you are saying I've told her straight myself she needs to be careful from now on especially if the courts decide to take a lenient view.

 

I'll come back and post an update once I know more. what is usually the time frame getting this to court?

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The time frames can be from 2 to 6 weeks.. I was not implying she was a speed freak at all. Just pointing out what you have said.

 

TBH if she is lucky not to get to higher penalty it may be the wake up call they need..

 

Will they speak to the duty Solicitor on the day? As the advice given my reduce the impact of the speeding offence..

 

Don't forget to surrender the driving licence to Court if points are added. Then remember to notify the insurance company of the new offence..

 

Good luck with your hearing and hope the fine/points are not to high...


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I'll be the first to admit I have sped in the past but the scare was enough for me to keep within the limits, because my job home and more would be at risk...

 

 

Again good luck I hope they get a decent result. If they receive a fine, please make sure this is paid off asap this will save money and the risk of the amount due becoming another debt...


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Guest roaringmouse

If she averaged 27.69 mph after being caught speeding, she would have arrived at 8:59am. If she continued at the original speed she would have arrived at 8:54 and 30 seconds. Somewhere between the two seems most likely.

 

Had she worked 16 miles away, she could POSSIBLY have tried to use that as defense, but the calibrated camera versus someone she works with vouching for her is always going to end one way IMHO.

 

I am confident that the CPS would be able to submit that as adequate evidence.

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If she averaged 27.69 mph after being caught speeding, she would have arrived at 8:59am. If she continued at the original speed she would have arrived at 8:54 and 30 seconds. Somewhere between the two seems most likely.

 

Had she worked 16 miles away, she could POSSIBLY have tried to use that as defense, but the calibrated camera versus someone she works with vouching for her is always going to end one way IMHO.

 

 

 

I am confident that the CPS would be able to submit that as adequate evidence.

 

 

That is all good and well giving me those statistics but add in peak time traffic, different speed limits in different zones added to the fact the some of the lanes were down to 1 lane of traffic due to a cycle lane being put in place and traffic lights. and nobody is vouching for her it's a fire register that she has to sign in with that she will be taking a copy of to court as this is also used for personel for paying wages and is classed as a legal document. whether the court accepts this as evidence I don't know but it is worth trying.

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Just an update for this...wife sent in the initial court papers to attend court and they have sent a letter today...

 

The case is for the 9th May but underneath this letter is says.. you might have to wait your turn etc

 

Reasons:

The matter has been adjourned because:

 

For case management hearing to discuss and identify the issues in the case and then fix a trial date. letter then goes on about witness.

 

So just wondering does she need to attend on the 9th or has this now been adjourned?

 

or is this just a pre hearing because she is contesting it and they want a hearing for it instead?

 

Not sure how it works from this point?

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re-read the letter actually now it makes sense hearing on that date

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If she averaged 27.69 mph after being caught speeding, she would have arrived at 8:59am. If she continued at the original speed she would have arrived at 8:54 and 30 seconds. Somewhere between the two seems most likely.

 

Had she worked 16 miles away, she could POSSIBLY have tried to use that as defense, but the calibrated camera versus someone she works with vouching for her is always going to end one way IMHO.

 

I am confident that the CPS would be able to submit that as adequate evidence.

 

Or look at it in the courts eyes. She broke the speed limit, arrived early, but waited a few mins to clock on. They 'seemingly' have proof she sped. You and your wife dont. Youre going to have to find more robust evidence to put in front of a court than youve outlined here. Thats where dash cams come in very handy


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Don't get me wrong I can see it from the courts eyes. I wasn't in the car with her at the time but I can only go on the fact that my OH is telling the truth 6 miles in about 14 mins with roads works down to one lane and peek time traffic, traffic lights and that there is about a 5 min walking distance to clock in where she parks her car. I guess it is upto the court to decide if she is telling the truth.

 

Would she be wise to take her car with her on the day? she has 6 points and whether the court decides a ban would this be instant as the letter doesn't state anything about whether you shouldn't drive or not.

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if they ban her, its effective immediately. She wouldnt want to get the ban, walk outside then jump in the car and drive away. She's be extremely stupid to do so, risking a massive fine and possible custodial sentence as the judge would think she's taking the proverbial.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Don't get me wrong I can see it from the courts eyes. I wasn't in the car with her at the time but I can only go on the fact that my OH is telling the truth 6 miles in about 14 mins with roads works down to one lane and peek time traffic, traffic lights and that there is about a 5 min walking distance to clock in where she parks her car. I guess it is upto the court to decide if she is telling the truth.

 

Would she be wise to take her car with her on the day? she has 6 points and whether the court decides a ban would this be instant as the letter doesn't state anything about whether you shouldn't drive or not.

 

"6 miles in about 14 mins" : that shows an average speed of 25.8 mph.

unfortunately: that shows did 25.8 across the whole 6 miles but says nothing about how the average was achieved.

She could have done a flat 25.8 mph throughout.

She could have done 1 mph for 7 minutes and then 50.6 for 7 minutes or 6 mph for 10 minutes and the remaining 5 miles in 4 minutes at 75 mph.

 

I'm not saying she was speeding, and if she wishes to put them to strict proof : go for it. I'm just saying that the court may well say "6 miles in 14 minutes" doesn't show she wasn't speeding at the point the prosecution say she was. If they produce evidence she was speeding she'd have to discredit that evidence, and relying on "6 miles in about 14 mins" won't achieve that on its own.

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It is legal requirement that a notice of intended prosecution has to specify the place of the offence (s.1© Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988). If this is not done within 14 days then you cannot be prosecuted (i.e. they cannot re-issue a corrected notice after the 14 day period). The place of the alleged offence has to be exact enough to allow you to respond to the allegation. For instance, if the place is identified as 'London Road, x town' and 'London Road' is 5 miles long then it may be that you cannot respond to the allegation. You might be able to say that you were speeding at x point on the London Road but not at y point on the same road - so which point is it? In law, a large area or stretch of road cannot be a 'place' in such circumstances. See The Judicial Dictionary, Sweet and Maxwell, London, 1908, p. 1486 et seq. (archive.org/stream/judicialdiction05strogoog#page/n99/mode/2up), where it was stated that Epsom Downs would not be a 'place' for the purposes of the Betting Act 1853 (Powell v. Kempton Park Co. [1899] AC 162). This is a House of Lords decision and therefore binding on all courts. By extension, the word 'place' in s.1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 cannot be an unspecific length of road; it has to be an exact location - a point on the road. Exactly this happened to me; the notice said 'London Road', which is about 7 miles long - but I did not argue the point because I did not want the hassle. After all, the universe is a 'place' in one sense but it would not be acceptable for a notice to allege that you were speeding 'somewhere in the universe'. PS - Check her previous convictions as well.

Edited by milneg

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Well the stretch of road they say she was speeding on which is about 1.5 miles long so the speed camera got her somewhere within that 1.5 mile stretch according to the paperwork but didn't state where they were parked at the time. the photo evidence isn't clear as it shows the car and next to the car is a lamp post that is all you can see.

 

I appreciate the advice hopefully they accept some kind of plea on the day.

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Check Go safe and see if they still have it listed. Any speed cameras, static or mobile have to be listed with at least 2 weeks prior notification


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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