Bedroom Tax

[Speedy75]

Could someone please tell me if i should still take my appeal to the Courts & Tribunal Service.

 

I have finally received a response from the Council and they state "Your housing provider has determined your property has three bedrooms and the room was designed to be used as a third bedroom.

 

They also quote a Upper Tribunal Decision SSWP v David Nelson (and James Nelson) and Fife Council (2014) UKUT 0525 (AAC).

 

They have measured the room and said it as 51.1 square feet of usabale floor space.

 

Thanks

[id6052]

you have nothing to lose by taking the appeal further

 

the Nelson v Fife decision is the leading caselaw, it is worth reading

 

is there anything unusual about the room that would stop it be used as a bedroom, such as no heating, no lighting, no windows, no ventilation?

[Bazooka Boo]

When I attempted to do the same thing, it became apparent that council properties are governed and come under different legislation regarding the bedroom tax.

 

If it is private or social housing, then all the council will do is speak to your LL and if they state that your property is a 3 bed, then the LA will take their word for it.

 

After all, it isn't in your LL's interest to say you're in a 2 bed because they will lose rent, as opposed to a 3 bed which will command more rent.

 

I live in a 2 bed flat, and the 2nd bedroom is under 43sqft, as such it is used to store my wheelchair and a wardrobe, but because my LL (social housing) will not reclassify the property, as there are 13 other flats in the building and they will lose rent, then the LA with the full support of the governments social cleansing program, will reduce you housing security.

[mikeymack2002]

Have you read this yet >> http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110118095356/http:/www.cabe.org.uk/files/space-standards-the-benefits.pdf

 

 

Or this one >>

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/2014/01/upper-tribunal-on-bedrooms/

[Speedy75]

Thanks for the replies. I will read the links posted.

 

It is a Council house. The room concerned is a box room, the box is there as the room is above the stairs in the hallway.

 

When it was used as a bedroom we used to tell the Council we thought it was too small, but they was not interested. When there was a bed in there there was no room for anything else.

 

The room was used by our youngest child, then when our older child moved out, we let him have the other bigger room.

 

This as been going on since August last year when we told the Council our older child had moved out.

 

The room does have heating, ventilation, lighting and heating, its just very small.

 

Could somebody please tell me if i did appeal and go to the Tribunal, who will attend? Would it be someone from where Housing Benefit is paid or my local housing office. It is a Council house, but what does a NHO housing mean.

 

Thanks all

Edited February 14, 2016 by Speedy75

[mikeymack2002]

It may help others if you post up some more information as to your request for help, details on whom uses the room and as much detail as you can please...

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?446679-How-to%85-make-an-appeal-against-Bedroom-Tax

 

Have you read these two links ? The one below has a lot of previous decisions - you can check out whether there is a similar situation to yours and the outcome.

 

 

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/bedroom-tax-ftt-decisions/

[Speedy75]

We have lived here 3 years, we rented it as a 3 bed house.

 

We moved in with me and my partner our son and daughter. Our daughter had the bigger bedroom and our son the box room.

 

When our daughter moved out last year, we let our son have the bigger room. We told the Council our daughter had moved out and we received the letter about our benefit been reduced by 14% for the room. We responded to them, and this as been going on since then. The room is just used for storage at the moment.

[mikeymack2002]

Its not about what it is used for now but what you have used it for in the past that will complicate the issue. If it was good enough as a bedroom then it is good enough for a bedroom now. Can you see the difficult situation you are now facing?

 

 

Are you working or in receipt of benefits and the like? Is this a Social Housing property or private? If on benefits and is a Social housing property you could get a downsizing grant for your troubles. Is this something you would consider? The grant is worth some money and it will be cheaper for you in the long run...

[Speedy75]

Thank you, So if i rented it originally as a 3 bed and did used to use it as a bedroom, there would be not much point me appealing. Yes it is a Social Housing property. i am self employed and get help towards the rent. I will look into the downsizing grant, thanks for mentioning that.

[mikeymack2002]

The reason for my suggesting this is three fold...

 

 

1. You get to move to a different property that is suitable for your current needs

2. You could get a grant for downsizing

3. It will be cheaper for you in the long run.

 

 

As an after thought The amount of CT could also be reduced as well. Not only that the running costs could be cheaper too! Plus you may pay a cheaper rent as well..

 

 

The final benefit could be if you end up on benefits full time for a while you may not be capped as much as you would be in a larger property... Food for thought?

 

 

See here >> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/journals/2013/10/10/p/q/r/Grants-to-Move-information-leaflet.pdf

[Speedy75]

It does make sense what you say, i will give it some serious thought.

 

Thanks for all the replies.

[mikeymack2002]

This is what CAG does and that is to help those that come here to find answers and advice. It would be good to update your thread when things have been sorted. This will allow others to se how you dealt with your issue and if they can follow the same advice as given... Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS I would seriously consider the downsize sooner rather than later due to the lack of suitable properties on the market...

[caro]

How old was your son when he used the room? It is always worth appealing.

[caro]

Thanks for the replies. I will read the links posted.

 

It is a Council house. The room concerned is a box room, the box is there as the room is above the stairs in the hallway.

 

When it was used as a bedroom we used to tell the Council we thought it was too small, but they was not interested. When there was a bed in there there was no room for anything else.

 

The room was used by our youngest child, then when our older child moved out, we let him have the other bigger room.

 

This as been going on since August last year when we told the Council our older child had moved out.

 

The room does have heating, ventilation, lighting and heating, its just very small.

 

Could somebody please tell me if i did appeal and go to the Tribunal, who will attend? Would it be someone from where Housing Benefit is paid or my local housing office. It is a Council house, but what does a NHO housing mean.

 

Thanks all

 

Normally it is someone from the council that pay HB but sometimes the LL sends a representative too?

 

What size is the room skirting board to skirting board? Does it have any special featured such as sloping ceiling that make any part of the room unusable?

[caro]

When I attempted to do the same thing, it became apparent that council properties are governed and come under different legislation regarding the bedroom tax.

 

If it is private or social housing, then all the council will do is speak to your LL and if they state that your property is a 3 bed, then the LA will take their word for it.

 

After all, it isn't in your LL's interest to say you're in a 2 bed because they will lose rent, as opposed to a 3 bed which will command more rent.

 

I live in a 2 bed flat, and the 2nd bedroom is under 43sqft, as such it is used to store my wheelchair and a wardrobe, but because my LL (social housing) will not reclassify the property, as there are 13 other flats in the building and they will lose rent, then the LA with the full support of the governments social cleansing program, will reduce you housing security.

 

You need to appeal the decision BB. In terms of size and usage that is not a bedroom. Read the Nelson & Fife v DWP case. From what you've said here you appear to have a rock solid case.

[caro]

http://www.housingsystems.co.uk/Portals/0/SSWP-v-David-Nelson-and-Fife-Council.docx

[Bazooka Boo]

You need to appeal the decision BB. In terms of size and usage that is not a bedroom. Read the Nelson & Fife v DWP case. From what you've said here you appear to have a rock solid case.

 

Many thanks Caro, I've let it go for the time being, had bigger fish to fry ie. the DWP, and that took me three years!

Currently I'm in receipt of zero help from my LA, and I'd like to keep it like that, the DWP are a big enough issue in themselves.

[caro]

Many thanks Caro, I've let it go for the time being, had bigger fish to fry ie. the DWP, and that took me three years!

Currently I'm in receipt of zero help from my LA, and I'd like to keep it like that, the DWP are a big enough issue in themselves.

 

In some ways I can understand that. Going to tribunal takes a lot of time and effort to build your case. I don't know your circumstances, but a discretionary housing payment, which is not permanent, might help until you've finished your battle with dwp.

 

Obviously it's up to you.

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes thank you, argued for 12 months with the LA before they awarded DHP, like I say until later on in the year when Maximus wave their magic wand and cure my brain damage, then I'm relatively safe.. but bookmarked for future.

[id6052]

I am confused BB

 

you said you get zero help from your LA, but you are getting a DHP

[Bazooka Boo]

I am confused BB

 

you said you get zero help from your LA, but you are getting a DHP

 

Not my thread.

However, I am NOT in receipt of any LA assistance, when I was, they paid me DHP.

[mikeymack2002]

Just to let everyone know there is yet another case in the Supreme Court re: Bedroom tax see here >> https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2016-0029.html

 

 

Details of the case are here >> https://tinyurl.com/j2bhqgq

[Speedy75]

How old was your son when he used the room? It is always worth appealing.

 

He was 9 when we moved in. My daughter moved out last year and he moved into her room when he was 11.

[Speedy75]

Normally it is someone from the council that pay HB but sometimes the LL sends a representative too?

 

What size is the room skirting board to skirting board? Does it have any special featured such as sloping ceiling that make any part of the room unusable?

 

 

I have tried to create a PDF of the room size, i hope you can see it. The box is in the bedroom due to the sloping ceiling in the hallway.

 

Thanks

 

bedrom size.pdf

bedrom size.pdf