Junior doctors begin second 24-hour strike

[think about it]

I know of a good few, very excellent doctors who've already left for Australia/NZ - can't say I blame them one bit.

 

Bazza, I honestly couldn't agree more with you, the lack of foresight is terrifying for England, if nothing else it'll resolve our recruitment issues here in Wales.

[citizenB]

There has always been a flow of junior doctors going to Australia and New Zealand, and to a lesser extent Canada.

 

This significantly increased when the juniors had uncertainty as to being able to get a UK training post, when the Modernising Medical Careers (aka Massacring Medical Careers) debacle was brought in : a great idea, poorly implemented (does that sound familiar?).

 

However, some of those who go abroad stay abroad, but previously many returned. If unfavourable contracts are imposed ; expect more to stay abroad as a return becomes less attractive.

 

I fear for the short term effects (not just more strikes but the uncertainty making a move abroad more attractive while this sorts itself out), and more juniors staying abroad.

 

I fear the longer term effects (juniors not returning to England at all), and the harm to the NHS in England.

At present this isn't an NHS wide issue. It is confined to NHS England.

It seems that (for now!) NHS Wales, NHS Scotland and HSC (Northern Ireland) have decided confrontation isn't the best tactic.

 

I imagine they will wait and see what the fallout is in England before making any moves - although I understood that Scotland, Wales and NI is where a lot of English Doctors were planning to attempt to relocate to ?

[unclebulgaria67]

I have been in a situation of having a new contract enforced. The way employers do this, is to sell the benefits of the new contract directly and some people will choose it because they benefit from it. There will be people looking to move to a different department, take up a new role etc and the condition will be that they accept the new contract. When the new contract was bought in some colleagues decided to stay on existing contracts because their old contract suited them e.g they did not work weekends, later into evenings.

 

Jeremy Hunt said on a radio programme yesterday that the new contract will not be forced on Doctors against their will. It will apply to new staff, staff who change their role or place of work. Doctors apparently do move around quite often and therefore within a few years most would end up on the new contract,

[think about it]

Yeah, junior doctors tend to move every six months through a training rotation.

[Surfer01]

I think you will find this is a fruitless exercise !

 

I have read most of the info available on this dispute and back the Doctors. Think the government are trying to stitch them up saying they will work less hours, changing pay arrangements and hoping Doctors will work the extra hours they usually do for less money than they were earning previously.

 

Surely in the private sector if you are working in the retail environment if you work a weekend you don't get extra pay anyway as it is regarded as a normal working day? I appreciate that they work hard adn that no one shoudl work for nothing, however at the end of the day it is the taxpayer that has to fit the bill with extra wages etc.

If a junior doctor wants to go to Australia, let them however they should pay back part of their training fees based on how long they have worked for the NHS after qualifying. Anyway Australia probably will not have room for more doctors in the near future.

[think about it]

Surely in the private sector if you are working in the retail environment if you work a weekend you don't get extra pay anyway as it is regarded as a normal working day? I appreciate that they work hard adn that no one shoudl work for nothing, however at the end of the day it is the taxpayer that has to fit the bill with extra wages etc.

If a junior doctor wants to go to Australia, let them however they should pay back part of their training fees based on how long they have worked for the NHS after qualifying. Anyway Australia probably will not have room for more doctors in the near future.

 

No one, surely, believes that Doctors don't already work weekends (besides the clown of a SOSfH), not one doctor enters into the profession thinking they won't have to work weekends. The issue is the seismic shift in salary for doing so, the safety implications for patients and the undeniable issue of spreading an already stretched resource even thinner.

 

If, as someone working in retail for example, I was to say: "look, we're going to increase your basic salary by 13% but slash your commission so on average you'll be earning 30% LESS than you are now, but hey - 13% increase, aren't we generous!" and then "We know you work all the hours god sends, but we've told our customers that we're going to open even more, and well, we can't afford any more staff so we've removed the safeguards over working and employed someone to 'keep an eye on us' but we're not sure how it'll work yet, but hey - 13%!!!"

 

How would we, the Consumer Action Group, advise those shop workers. After all, selling furniture isn't exactly saving lives is it?

 

One of the first things that'll happen is the complete erosion of good will. I lost count how many hours I sat waiting for my other half to finish work in A&E, sitting in the car park to pick them up when I see another ambulance roll in and she came out of the department, waved at me and climbed into the back of the ambulance to see the patient, in her own time, often at the end of a 12 hour shift where all she's eaten is a couple of 'minature heroes'. Oh, but in retail...

[BazzaS]

I have been in a situation of having a new contract enforced. The way employers do this, is to sell the benefits of the new contract directly and some people will choose it because they benefit from it. There will be people looking to move to a different department, take up a new role etc and the condition will be that they accept the new contract. When the new contract was bought in some colleagues decided to stay on existing contracts because their old contract suited them e.g they did not work weekends, later into evenings.

 

Jeremy Hunt said on a radio programme yesterday that the new contract will not be forced on Doctors against their will. It will apply to new staff, staff who change their role or place of work. Doctors apparently do move around quite often and therefore within a few years most would end up on the new contract,

 

Disingenuous of the SOSfH.

 

He knows the junior doctors have to move between posts. The only juniors who might choose to stay in their current posts would be those whose current site AND role offered all the specialities / sub specialities needed for their training

 

What of a paediatrics junior at a hospital where they have no maternity, so no SCBU/ neonatal ICU : they'd have to move or their training would never be approved as complete.

Conversely : what of the paeds junior currently working in a highly specialised post as part of a training rotation : let's say paediatric cardiac surgery. Unless they'd already completed enough "general" paediatrics to allow their training to be signed off by the Deanery and Royal College they would have to move.

 

The SOSfH either knows this already and is being disingenuous, or doesn't know / understand this. Neither are good scenarios.

 

Not being forced implies an element of choice.

However this "element of choice" is like being asked "do you want to be hung or shot?".

Actually, neither thanks! But the option of neither isn't being offered....

[BazzaS]

Just when you were wondering what statements you could trust:

Regarding how a whole load of Trust Chief Execs backed the imposition of the new contract (or not.....)

He said this position was supported by trust chief executives across the country and twenty of their names were added to the letter.

The involvement of a wider group of NHS leaders gave the government further comfort as ministers embarked on their controversial imposition plan.

 

But late on Thursday, this began to look fragile as the Health Service Journal discovered that some of the 20 named in the letter did not actually support the imposing of the contract.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-34768403

[BazzaS]

Oops, wrong link, and the page has been updated since.

Try :

Junior doctors' row: NHS chiefs speak out over letter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35557135

[snowdragon]

I was rushed to hospital early hours of this morning and it was chaos at the Hospital I was taken to, people in corridors etc. A Doctor did not see me until around 8am today, I got into hospital at half 3!

I am going to be out of action for awhile and I actually said sorry to them for adding to the list! I got sent home for now but have to take things easy, xx

[unclebulgaria67]

I was rushed to hospital early hours of this morning and it was chaos at the Hospital I was taken to, people in corridors etc. A Doctor did not see me until around 8am today, I got into hospital at half 3!

I am going to be out of action for awhile and I actually said sorry to them for adding to the list! I got sent home for now but have to take things easy, xx

 

Hope you get better.

 

I suspect your timing was not great, as hospitals are very busy every Friday night. If people were not so addicted to alcohol, you would have been seen quickly.

[snowdragon]

very true Uncle but pain in the chest I guess wait for no one got so many sticky pads all over me and bruises from having blood taken, just so thankful l we have the NHS , sone as arrived there was told at least a 3 hour wait

[citizenB]

A few years ago my Son was rushed to hospital after being involved in a car accident - the hospital was full of drunks and it was apparently hospital policy to deal with those as a priority !!

 

Fortunately my Son wasnt injured too badly - broken wrist - some glass embedded in his arm and of course shock.. Ironically he had swerved to avoid drunken idiots playing chicken on the road !!