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Junior doctors begin second 24-hour strike

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So did they take the 'hippocratic oath' or the 'hypocrite'.

 

Seems it's not a vocation any longer but a job for lets see how much money we can squeeze out of the NHS and sod the sick.

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http://www.theweek.co.uk/65579/junior-doctors-strike-walkout-called-off-at-the-last-minute

 

I am not quite sure what they are on strike for.

 

It is my understanding that the government/NHS want to introduce a 7 day working week throughout the NHS. As long as this refers to ALL staff within the NHS, every department including admin staff and consultants, I dont understand their problem.

 

 

What is the dispute about?

 

It results from government plans to introduce seven-day working throughout the NHS, which ministers say will lead to a better, safer service for patients. Junior doctors argue that proposed changes to their contracts will mean cuts to pay, especially for work during evenings and weekends, and long working hours that will compromise the safety of both doctors and their patients.

 

The British Medical Association (BMA) says the contracts are "bad for patients, bad for junior doctors and bad for the NHS" and estimates that junior doctors could face pay cuts of between 15 and 30 per cent as a result.

 

 

Above, it says that there will be long working hours and less pay

 

Below, Doctors say it isnt about pay ??

 

What do doctors say?

 

Medics insist the walkout is not about pay or politics but simply about protecting both patient and doctor safety. "We are not asking for a pay rise," Dr Bishakha Chowdhury told the Daily Mirror. "But we are asking for the people with the purse strings to listen to us, talk to us to try and sustainably save the pride of Britain and the envy of the world - the NHS."

 

Surely it will be much safer for them and patients if they work say a 5 day week or 45 hours a week (however they schedule the working week) spread over the 7 days. As long as they recruit the extra staff to cover this, then it has to be better for staff as well as patients ?

 

Presumably the main gripe is that they will lose pay by not doing the longer and unsociable hours as that will be built into their 5 day contract ?


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I blame Jeremy Hunt here for the way he has handled negotiations with Doctors. It should never have got to the stage of strikes.

 

From what i gather the key points are

 

Hours of work ( how it would work covering 24/7 all year )

 

Pay ( evidence that no current Doctors would be worse off following the change)

 

Resources ( how many extra Nurses, Doctors, Consultants etc would be needed for 24 hour a day full services over 365 days )

 

The NHS already provides 24/7 emergency cover all year round. What they don't offer are non emergency operations at weekends, because they don't have a full staff working in operating theatres, laboratories etc.

 

Given that private healthcare companies can use NHS hospital facilities, there is no reason NHS cannot involve private companies doing operations at weekends, billed to NHS at NHS standard rate. Of course they won't because they can charge more offering private services directly.


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Why on earth would you pay a private company tens of thousands and give them free use of NHS equipment.

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Why on earth would you pay a private company tens of thousands and give them free use of NHS equipment.

 

The health & social care act under the coalition allowed NHS facilities to be used by private companies or it increased how much access time they are allowed.

 

Private companies are already running NHS hospitals which offer both NHS and private services. They offer NHS non emergency operations with normal say 6 month waiting list or private option at private rate within a few weeks.

 

Locally within 20 miles, there are a number of hospitals and treatment centres offering both NHS and private in the same building. I have heard of local people being offered choice by GP's and some have gone to these hospitals who have offered quicker access if paid privately. There must be a conflict of interest offering both NHS and private.


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Well all that is completely irrelevant, this is about greedy doctors saying they are special and should get paid extra for working Saturdays.

It matter not to them that millions of others already work Saturdays and it's a normal working day to them.

 

They are saying they will leave the NHS if they don't get it, most of them do anyway. This proves they only have themselves in mind and it also reinforces how right the ending of subsidised University courses is.

Edited by Conniff

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Well all that is completely irrelevant, this is about greedy doctors saying they are special and should get paid extra for working Saturdays.

It matter not to them that millions of others already work Saturdays and it's a normal working day to them.

 

They are saying they will leave the NHS if they don't get it, most of them do anyway. This proves they only have themselves in mind and it also reinforces how right the ending of subsidised University courses is.

 

It is a bit relevant. Some of the consultants they work with during the week for the NHS, also work at other times including weekends doing private work. The governments health department are picking on junior Doctors at the moment, admitting that their next negotiation is with consultants, who will probably want the private rates of pay they can already obtain.

 

Junior Doctors already work 1 in every 3 weekends on average and apparently this ratio won't change much. It is just that the weekends won't attract the same pay rate as it does at the moment. The government have admitted that overall pay spending won't change, so the 11% per hour pay increase must mean less Doctors hours spread across 7 days. Hospitals are already struggling week days with not enough Doctors, so the additional Doctors hours at weekends has not been explained. Where are all these extra Doctors ? Junior Doctors think they will be asked to work many extra hours for no pay, even beyond what happens now.

 

Government need to explain their side more clearly, as does the BMA.


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I don't think doctors are greedy at all. They know that tired doctors can't provide the best service to patients. I know I would rather be seen by a doctor who wasn't tired out and stressed with covering too many shifts.

 

Many, many other employees in various industries are paid more for working weekends. Doctors have studied hard for 6 years to become qualified (some longer) and heave a heavy responsibility for people's lives.

 

My friend's daughter qualified as a doctor, her next door neighbour is a plumber who only works hours to suit himself and earns more than her.


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Lets put this in perspective

 

NHS pay awards generally - 1%

Jeremy Hunt wants to give wants to give the doctors MINUS 25%

 

Jeremy Hunt pay award - 10%

David Cameron backs MPs' 10% backdated pay rise as 'the rate for the job'.

 

RBS senior bankers

- £3.3M in share bonus to 10 RBS executives (on top of pay) to avoid EU limits

- for running a bankrupt state owned bank even further down after the government sells a traunch of shares at a £1.1B loss to its mates.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbs-pay-idUSL5N10N41320150812

 

 

 

 

 

and they whinge when doctors leave to get better lives abroad.


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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For anyone struggling to understand the dispute:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35531121

 

It's really quite simple, there are only 'x' amount of doctors to cover 'y' amount of hours. Is it so outrageous that people want to be paid to go to work and under the terms and conditions that they agreed to? Really? Doctors pay is made up of two elements, the basic (which Ceremy Junt is proposing to increase by 11%) and the banding which reflects how hard the doctor works. It's the cut in banding that in reality sees some doctors lose as much as 30/50%. Now, if this were a shop/office worker posting in the employment section of this forum, what would be our advice? It's comical that there's an impression that doctors don't work weekends / holidays / every other day. I wish someone would have told my wife that when I was sat eating xmas lunch on my own, or nursing a poorly child overnight or spending most weekends doing the daddy bit while she could have not been in Accident and Emergency on 12 hour nightshifts trying to keep people alive. But no, the DM and the tory party are quite happy to paint the profession as misled and greedy and some people snap it up...

 

It can take 14 years of training and work to reach 'senior level' and yet for someone of similar academic ability and commitment we don't decry architects, dentists, airline pilots, lawyers, vets from protecting their earnings.

 

And then people say 'But it's a vocation...' No, it's a job... Vocations aren't accepted in Tesco in exchange for the weekly shop, the last time I checked I'm pretty sure our landlord didn't accept 'good karma' and I'm almost certain that our joint account isn't full of goodwill and a job-well-done.

 

It's like the promised seven day GP opening, as much as I'd love to open my surgery 7 days a week I can't simply pull another doctor/nurse/receptionist out of my arse and there's no additional funding to pay them any more so that means spreading services more thinly over the week.

 

Think of it as cake if you like, normally it's divided up into 5 slices and even then, there's not much to go around. Now, seven people are here and they all want a slice, the cake doesn't magically get any bigger, each slice has to be smaller.

 

I'm saddened to see that the Daily Mail / Tory agenda is spreading... If you don't already have health insurance - start looking...


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Lets put this in perspective

 

NHS pay awards generally - 1%

Jeremy Hunt wants to give wants to give the doctors MINUS 25%

 

Jeremy Hunt pay award - 10%

David Cameron backs MPs' 10% backdated pay rise as 'the rate for the job'.

 

RBS senior bankers

- £3.3M in share bonus to 10 RBS executives (on top of pay) to avoid EU limits

- for running a bankrupt state owned bank even further down after the government sells a traunch of shares at a £1.1B loss to its mates.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbs-pay-idUSL5N10N41320150812

 

 

 

 

 

and they whinge when doctors leave to get better lives abroad.

 

Spot on!


My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

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So did they take the 'hippocratic oath' or the 'hypocrite'.

 

Seems it's not a vocation any longer but a job for lets see how much money we can squeeze out of the NHS and sod the sick.

 

It's the declaration of Geneva now, rather than Hippocratic oath.

 

Nowhere do either say "you must let the Government walk all over you & make things worse for patients", and the Government wants people to think this is about lazy, greedy Junior doctors.

 

The Junior Doctors say this is about expecting them to do more for no more money, while affecting patient safety.

 

The Government say this is about providing a 24/7 NHS. The junior doctors say the NHS is already 24/7.

The junior doctors point out that they are being asked to provide more staffing "out of hours & weekends", but with no increased funding and no additional staff this can only happen by either or both of

A) doctors working longer hours, and

B) less staff working during the "working week" stretching an already stretched system further.

 

For those people who say "I already work Saturdays" : when junior doctors work weekends they don't always get an extra day off during the week : so, is this a "like for like" comparison.

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Doctors have studied hard for 6 years to become qualified (some longer) and heave a heavy responsibility for people's lives.

 

It can take 14 years of training and work to reach 'senior level' ....

 

The Junior Doctors say this is about expecting them to do more for no more money, while affecting patient safety.

 

The Government say this is about providing a 24/7 NHS. The junior doctors say the NHS is already 24/7.

 

Their choice, they could have chose to be a plumber or traffic warden but they chose to be doctors.

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So that means they ought to simply accept a pay cut?


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Their choice, they could have chose to be a plumber or traffic warden but they chose to be doctors.

 

Just as well they didn't !


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Their choice, they could have chose to be a plumber or traffic warden but they chose to be doctors.

 

They chose to be doctors here, under the t&C's they were promised.

That isn't what the Tories are honoring.


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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w/b interesting to know what their actual terms and conditions are that they agreed to be employed under?


IMO

:-):rant:

 

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w/b interesting to know what their actual terms and conditions are that they agreed to be employed under?

 

True, but I think three things are unquestionable

 

1. They weren't what the tories are now proposing.

2. They already work way beyond the requirements.

3. The vast majority of doctors are well worth at least what they already get, and any that aren't is an administrative/management issue completely outside of pay and conditions


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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maybe. thing is John Q (excuse the pun :)) doesnt know. well this J Q doesnt.

do for eg their terms say for eg

mon - fri 7 am to 6 pm is the std.

time to time will be required to work outside that ie weekends @ xx remuneration

req'd to work shifts outside inc weekends @ xx remun

req'd to cover illnesses

time to time rq'd to be on call @ x remun

on call re emergencies

etc,

and the govt is trying to change what? from it being mon -fri to mon - mon. or reducing the remun, or the shift pattern, or...

:noidea:

ps excuse the typos, managed to edit within the requisite ten mins :)


IMO

:-):rant:

 

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True, but I think three things are unquestionable

 

1. They weren't what the tories are now proposing. What are the tories now proposing ??

2. They already work way beyond the requirements. What are they now working ??

3. The vast majority of doctors are well worth at least what they already get, Where has this information come from ??

 

A few ??

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For anyone struggling to understand the dispute:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35531121

 

It's really quite simple, there are only 'x' amount of doctors to cover 'y' amount of hours. Is it so outrageous that people want to be paid to go to work and under the terms and conditions that they agreed to? Really? Doctors pay is made up of two elements, the basic (which Ceremy Junt is proposing to increase by 11%) and the banding which reflects how hard the doctor works. It's the cut in banding that in reality sees some doctors lose as much as 30/50%. Now, if this were a shop/office worker posting in the employment section of this forum, what would be our advice? It's comical that there's an impression that doctors don't work weekends / holidays / every other day. I wish someone would have told my wife that when I was sat eating xmas lunch on my own, or nursing a poorly child overnight or spending most weekends doing the daddy bit while she could have not been in Accident and Emergency on 12 hour nightshifts trying to keep people alive. But no, the DM and the tory party are quite happy to paint the profession as misled and greedy and some people snap it up...

 

It can take 14 years of training and work to reach 'senior level' and yet for someone of similar academic ability and commitment we don't decry architects, dentists, airline pilots, lawyers, vets from protecting their earnings.

 

And then people say 'But it's a vocation...' No, it's a job... Vocations aren't accepted in Tesco in exchange for the weekly shop, the last time I checked I'm pretty sure our landlord didn't accept 'good karma' and I'm almost certain that our joint account isn't full of goodwill and a job-well-done.

 

It's like the promised seven day GP opening, as much as I'd love to open my surgery 7 days a week I can't simply pull another doctor/nurse/receptionist out of my arse and there's no additional funding to pay them any more so that means spreading services more thinly over the week.

 

Think of it as cake if you like, normally it's divided up into 5 slices and even then, there's not much to go around. Now, seven people are here and they all want a slice, the cake doesn't magically get any bigger, each slice has to be smaller.

 

I'm saddened to see that the Daily Mail / Tory agenda is spreading... If you don't already have health insurance - start looking...

 

My understanding is that the idea is to treat all days as normal working days - so there will be no overtime pay / unsocial hours pay for working weekends / bank holidays / night or day shifts.

 

However, there is to be an increase in pay of 11%.

 

Is it a case then that decent salary levels are only achievable by working the less sociable hours because of the extra pay given for those ?


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Their choice, they could have chose to be a plumber or traffic warden but they chose to be doctors.

 

They could have chosen to be plumbers.

 

They chose to be doctors, and PART of that decision was based on the pay and T's & C's they knew of.

 

They didn't sign up with the expectation of new T's & C's being IMPOSED upon them, the "negotiation tactic" the Government had been using for a while......

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My understanding is that the idea is to treat all days as normal working days - so there will be no overtime pay / unsocial hours pay for working weekends / bank holidays / night or day shifts.

 

However, there is to be an increase in pay of 11%.

 

Is it a case then that decent salary levels are only achievable by working the less sociable hours because of the extra pay given for those ?

 

Effectively, yes.

 

Here's the banding system explained

 

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/content.php?r=16147-how-much-does-a-doctor-get-paid

 

So given that most jobs attract a banding you can see how the headline 11% on basic actually represents a cut for most doctors - especially those working in critical care and other services like A&E.

 

There's a comedy misconception that the NHS isn't 24/7, but the last time I checked there weren't opening hours posted outside A&E, our answering machine at the surgery has details of GP out of hours services and if I call 999 an ambulance will come, even at 4am on a Sunday.

 

Do you really need a routine hearing test at 8pm on a Sunday?


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We could do with some help from you.

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Effectively, yes.

 

Here's the banding system explained

 

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/content.php?r=16147-how-much-does-a-doctor-get-paid

 

So given that most jobs attract a banding you can see how the headline 11% on basic actually represents a cut for most doctors - especially those working in critical care and other services like A&E.

 

There's a comedy misconception that the NHS isn't 24/7, but the last time I checked there weren't opening hours posted outside A&E, our answering machine at the surgery has details of GP out of hours services and if I call 999 an ambulance will come, even at 4am on a Sunday.

 

Do you really need a routine hearing test at 8pm on a Sunday?

 

Yes, I can see the problem now, very worrying and erm, nope.. I don't think I would need a routine hearing test on a Sunday at any time !!


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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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