Security Guard, Transport Police and Penalty Fair Issue

[lb722]

A bit of a strange experience today.

 

I had to wait about 45 minutes for a train,

I thought that I would do that inside the station concourse as I usually do.

 

 

I decided to wait near some shops inside, all of which were closed.

A security guard approached me, told me that he was closing the retail section of the station and asked me to move on.

I did as instructed and, headed for one of the waiting rooms.

 

After entering the gents, I noticed that he had followed me in there.

He didn't seem to use the toilet.

He just stood there watching me.

 

 

I left and sat down at a seat in the waiting room, planning on getting some work done on my laptop,

only to have him stand in front of me staring at me.

I asked him what his problem was, but he didn't reply.

 

I left the waiting room, hoping that he wouldn't follow me, but he continued to do so.

I asked him to leave me alone, at which point a British Transport Police officer walked by and asked what was going on.

 

 

The security guard told him that the station was closing and that I was refusing to leave.

I explained to the BTP that the station was still open for over two hours as I knew the time of my last train home.

 

 

BTP then asked the security guard if I had been asked to leave the station, to which the reply was 'Yes'.

I explained that I had been asked to leave the retail section, not the station, and that I had done as instructed.

 

At this point the BTP asked to see my rail ticket.

I showed it to him and he claimed that it was invalid.

I claimed that it wasn't.

 

 

The dispute was then taken to a revenue protection officer,

who decided to issue me with a penalty fare as,

despite the station I was at being the station I had to change at to get home,

the ticket didn't permit me to wait inside the concourse for 45 minutes.

Apparently I should have left and stood outside the station before returning to catch my train.

 

 

My ticket was confiscated and I was left with a long walk home.

 

I'm not really sure what to make of this as three members of rail staff appear to have got it all horribly wrong.

 

 

What can I do from here though?

[dx100uk]

admitted this does sound strange

 

 

we have several very good members here that

will be able to help..

 

 

however, I feel that a bit more info on where this occurred might be required.

 

 

dx

[king12345]

You say: despite the station I was at being the station I had to change at to get home,

the ticket didn't permit me to wait inside the concourse for 45 minutes.

 

Can you please rephrase that?

Any ticket is valid to enter the compulsory ticket area and wait for as long as necessary.

If a penalty fare was issued then probably your ticket was not valid for that station.

Please explain further including start and finish point of validity of your ticket.

Thanks

[lb722]

The RPI claimed that I was not allowed to wait in the station for 45 minutes for a train. He told me that I was supposed to leave and come back.

 

My ticket was valid for that station. The station name was even on my ticket as it said 'via X' on the ticket. X being the station where the incident took place.

[king12345]

The RPI claimed that I was not allowed to wait in the station for 45 minutes for a train. He told me that I was supposed to leave and come back.

 

My ticket was valid for that station. The station name was even on my ticket as it said 'via X' on the ticket. X being the station where the incident took place.

 

Then he's talking boll@x.

Appeal the penalty fare and separately write a strong complaint to the CEO.

I hope you kept your ticket.

Don't send them the original or it will magically get lost.

[lb722]

My ticket was confiscated.

 

How long will it be until I receive the penalty fare letter?

[Old-CodJA]

My ticket was confiscated.

 

How long will it be until I receive the penalty fare letter?

 

 

From this post this does not appear to be a Penalty Fare matter at all.

 

 

Penalty Fare Notices are issued subject to strict rules and if applicable, the Penalty Notice is made out and handed to the traveller at the time of the alleged infraction. If you were not handed a printed and numbered Penalty Fare Notice at the time of this occurrence it seems much more likely that the Revenue Protection Inspector has confiscated the ticket in order to make a written report.

[Old-CodJA]

To be able to give truly accurate advice in this case it will be necessary to know what ticket was held, the start and finish stations and the changing point on this journey

[king12345]

Correct, it's not a penalty fare, otherwise you would have a receipt.

You might receive a letter asking to explain what happened.

The ticket should be produced in evidence unless the inspector cheated and claimed you didn't have a ticket (quite unlikely).

Did you read the inspector notes?

Were you cautioned?

If everything has been done correctly by the inspector, most likely the prosecution dpt will scrap the report because your ticket was valid.

[BazzaS]

Correct, it's not a penalty fare, otherwise you would have a receipt.

You might receive a letter asking to explain what happened.

The ticket should be produced in evidence unless the inspector cheated and claimed you didn't have a ticket (quite unlikely).

Did you read the inspector notes?

Were you cautioned?

If everything has been done correctly by the inspector, most likely the prosecution dpt will scrap the report because your ticket was valid.

 

MIGHT be valid

 

To be able to give truly accurate advice in this case it will be necessary to know what ticket was held, the start and finish stations and the changing point on this journey

 

It may be that the OP thinks they had a valid ticket, but it wasn't.......

Hence OCJ's comment, and why we need to have the details .....

[king12345]

"My ticket was valid for that station. The station name was even on my ticket as it said 'via X' on the ticket. X being the station where the incident took place."

 

That sounds like he had a valid ticket.

[BazzaS]

"My ticket was valid for that station. The station name was even on my ticket as it said 'via X' on the ticket. X being the station where the incident took place."

 

That sounds like he had a valid ticket.

 

It certainly sounds like the OP thinks their ticket was valid.

They may be correct.

 

To be able to give truly accurate advice in this case it will be necessary to know what ticket was held, the start and finish stations and the changing point on this journey

 

So, what ticket was held may be significant : if it was "an off-peak ticket being used at a peak time" do you still feel it would have been valid?

A "railcard" ticket without the accompanying railcard?

[king12345]

So, what ticket was held may be significant : if it was "an off-peak ticket being used at a peak time" do you still feel it would have been valid?

A "railcard" ticket without the accompanying railcard?

 

Very true.

Only the op can answer that.

Now that you mentioned off-peak, I get the feeling that this might be the key to the 45 minutes out of station drama.

[BazzaS]

Very true.

Only the op can answer that.

Now that you mentioned off-peak, I get the feeling that this might be the key to the 45 minutes out of station drama.

 

I suspect not, as the shops were closed, so more likely the OP was travelling off-peak, when either a peak or off-peak ticket would be valid.

 

It also occurred to me that the 2nd train may have been by a different TOC, and the ticket may have been endorsed for use only on trains of the first TOC. I was just pointing out scenario's where the interchange station could be "valid via", but the ticket still not valid.

 

However, we just don't know without the details, and the OP hasn't yet come back to inform us.

[mikeymack2002]

Tickets that are valid via xx create a whole new set of issues on their own. As is travelling on the wrong train with the right ticket. In as much as a cheaper ticket may not be valid on an express train or at certain times.

[Old-CodJA]

The case of Gillingham (1881) clarified that to be accepted as valid for travel as a minimum, any ticket must be valid for all of the following: the day, date, place, time of train and class of accomodation occupied. More recently, additional restrictions may apply.

[lb722]

If you were not handed a printed and numbered Penalty Fare Notice at the time of this occurrence it seems much more likely that the Revenue Protection Inspector has confiscated the ticket in order to make a written report.

When can I expect to hear about this?

 

To be able to give truly accurate advice in this case it will be necessary to know what ticket was held, the start and finish stations and the changing point on this journey

It's definitely a valid ticket. I've been making the journey on a weekly basis for years. The only way to avoid waiting for a train at the station where the incident occurred is to travel 3.5 miles via other means to another station to catch a slower train, then alight a stop early to travel 3.5 miles via other means to the first stop on the second train's route.

 

Alternatively I can take another route, which wouldn't be valid

 

Did you read the inspector notes?

Were you cautioned?

I was given a lengthy speech about how I wasn't allowed to wait in the station for so long between trains and that I should always have a valid ticket on my person at all times. I was then told that I would hear from them in the post about how much I would have to pay them for both 'trespassing' on the railway and attempting to travel with an invalid ticket.

 

So, what ticket was held may be significant : if it was "an off-peak ticket being used at a peak time" do you still feel it would have been valid?

A "railcard" ticket without the accompanying railcard?

It was an off-peak ticket at off-peak times. It was Sunday night. I believe that all trains are off-peak on a Sunday, while the same also applies for late night trains.

 

A railcard was used, was seen by the RPI and I still have this.

 

It also occurred to me that the 2nd train may have been by a different TOC, and the ticket may have been endorsed for use only on trains of the first TOC. I was just pointing out scenario's where the interchange station could be "valid via", but the ticket still not valid.

Same TOC.

[BazzaS]

When can I expect to hear about this?

 

 

It's definitely a valid ticket. I've been making the journey on a weekly basis for years. The only way to avoid waiting for a train at the station where the incident occurred is to travel 3.5 miles via other means to another station to catch a slower train, then alight a stop early to travel 3.5 miles via other means to the first stop on the second train's route.

 

Alternatively I can take another route, which wouldn't be valid

 

 

I was given a lengthy speech about how I wasn't allowed to wait in the station for so long between trains and that I should always have a valid ticket on my person at all times. I was then told that I would hear from them in the post about how much I would have to pay them for both 'trespassing' on the railway and attempting to travel with an invalid ticket.

 

 

It was an off-peak ticket at off-peak times. It was Sunday night. I believe that all trains are off-peak on a Sunday, while the same also applies for late night trains.

 

A railcard was used, was seen by the RPI and I still have this.

 

 

Same TOC.

 

You went to the trouble of quoting :

 

To be able to give truly accurate advice in this case it will be necessary to know what ticket was held, the start and finish stations and the changing point on this journey

 

 

despite quoting this you didn't actually answer what ticket and which stations ( / interchange), but you still expect advice?

Not only would it affect validity of ticket, but it will influence which TOC is involved.

 

Bear in mind that OCJ is an "industry expert" : you should reconsider actually answering.

[Old-CodJA]

When can I expect to hear about this?

 

Most TOCs prosecution offices are very busy, it may be as little as 21-28 days before you receive any letter (occasionally sooner), but the TOC have up to 6 months to lay an information if a prosecutable case is identified. That doesn't mean it will take that long to receive a letter, but very occasionally it can take 6 weeks or so to receive any first correspondence

 

 

It's definitely a valid ticket. I've been making the journey on a weekly basis for years. The only way to avoid waiting for a train at the station where the incident occurred is to travel 3.5 miles via other means to another station to catch a slower train, then alight a stop early to travel 3.5 miles via other means to the first stop on the second train's route.

 

That is your belief and I am not saying that you are wrong, BUT, if you expect accurate help from members of the forum you need to state what the ticket was. From where and where to? What station you were at? What fare was paid and what restriction code, if any, was printed on the ticket? Without that information no-one can tell if you have a case to contest any action and no-one can assist you in doing so

 

 

Alternatively I can take another route, which wouldn't be valid

 

Why do you believe any alternative route was not valid?

 

 

I was given a lengthy speech about how I wasn't allowed to wait in the station for so long between trains and that I should always have a valid ticket on my person at all times. I was then told that I would hear from them in the post about how much I would have to pay them for both 'trespassing' on the railway and attempting to travel with an invalid ticket.

 

Were you cautioned? (some people use the inaccurate American jargon and say 'read their rights') Did the inspector and/or BTP Police make any written notes? Were you given opportunity to read and correct anything? Did you sign any notes?

 

 

It was an off-peak ticket at off-peak times. It was Sunday night. I believe that all trains are off-peak on a Sunday, while the same also applies for late night trains.

 

Yes, Sundays are generally off-peak, but that does not mean that any other ticket specific restrictions are automatically suspended.

 

 

A railcard was used, was seen by the RPI and I still have this.

 

Railcard type may have a relevance, but if it was in date and your personal issue I cannot see any reason that would be otherwise relevant. Your answers to my other questions might clarify the point.

[lb722]

Most TOCs prosecution offices are very busy, it may be as little as 21-28 days before you receive any letter (occasionally sooner), but the TOC have up to 6 months to lay an information if a prosecutable case is identified. That doesn't mean it will take that long to receive a letter, but very occasionally it can take 6 weeks or so to receive any first correspondence

Thanks.

 

That is your belief and I am not saying that you are wrong, BUT, if you expect accurate help from members of the forum you need to state what the ticket was. From where and where to? What station you were at? What fare was paid and what restriction code, if any, was printed on the ticket? Without that information no-one can tell if you have a case to contest any action and no-one can assist you in doing so

It's 100% a valid ticket. The station I had to change at to catch the second train was specified on the ticket as the via station. There is no way that I would have been required to walk 7 miles to avoid the station.

 

Why do you believe any alternative route was not valid?

Because there are two possible routes. A station on the other route wasn't listed as the via station and I didn't have an any permitted route ticket. My ticket specified that I had to travel via the station where the incident took place.

 

Were you cautioned? (some people use the inaccurate American jargon and say 'read their rights') Did the inspector and/or BTP Police make any written notes? Were you given opportunity to read and correct anything? Did you sign any notes?

Notes were made but I wasn't asked to read or sign anything.

 

Railcard type may have a relevance, but if it was in date and your personal issue I cannot see any reason that would be otherwise relevant. Your answers to my other questions might clarify the point.

In date, on my person and seen by the RPI. No issues about it. The issue is that my ticket apparently didn't permit me to wait inside the station and that I didn't have a second ticket allowing me to wait there.

[Old-CodJA]

It's 100% a valid ticket. The station I had to change at to catch the second train was specified on the ticket as the via station. There is no way that I would have been required to walk 7 miles to avoid the station.

 

 

You may be right, BUT, it appears from your own post that 3 other people including Revenue Protection staff, a BT Police Officer and station security staff have all taken a different view. I suggest that there must be a reason for that.

 

As you are unwilling to give the details of that ticket, route and your location, no-one on this or any other forum can help you.

 

If you only came to the forum to tell a story then fine, but if you were genuinely seeking help to understand why this may have happened and to deal with any errors that rail & Police staff may have made, then you have to give information for people to make an informed judgement.

 

Without that information I am sorry, but I cannot help further

[lb722]

It's only two people who raised an issue with the ticket. The security guard wasn't involved with the ticket.

 

Two examples, neither of which are the ticket I had. Or maybe one is, who knows?

 

1. Exeter St. Davids to Salisbury (via Westbury ticket)

 

2. Reading to High Wycombe (via Banbury ticket)

 

Each of these journeys offer two different possible routes, both of which are priced differently.

 

For the Salisbury one, you can travel through Yeovil on the way instead. A ticket from Exeter to Salisbury via Yeovil wouldn't be valid at Westbury. If I had a ticket from Exeter St. Davids to Salisbury via Westbury, I would have to alight at Westbury to catch a train to Salisbury. So assume that I had a ticket from Exeter to Salisbury via Westbury and this incident took place at Westbury.

 

For the High Wycombe one, you can travel into London instead. A ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via London wouldn't be valid at Banbury. If I had a ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via Banbury, I would have to alight at Banbury to catch a train to High Wycombe. So assume that I had a ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via Banbury and this incident took place at Banbury.

 

Each of these scenarios are identical to mine and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever about which station it happened at now does it?

 

This isn't a question about whether or not my ticket was valid for the route I took as I know for a fact that it was!

Edited February 22, 2016 by lb722

[BazzaS]

It's only two people who raised an issue with the ticket. The security guard wasn't involved with the ticket.

 

Two examples, neither of which are the ticket I had. Or maybe one is, who knows?

 

1. Exeter St. Davids to Salisbury (via Westbury ticket)

 

2. Reading to High Wycombe (via Banbury ticket)

 

Each of these journeys offer two different possible routes, both of which are priced differently.

 

For the Salisbury one, you can travel through Yeovil on the way instead. A ticket from Exeter to Salisbury via Yeovil wouldn't be valid at Westbury. If I had a ticket from Exeter St. Davids to Salisbury via Westbury, I would have to alight at Westbury to catch a train to Salisbury. So assume that I had a ticket from Exeter to Salisbury via Westbury and this incident took place at Westbury.

 

For the High Wycombe one, you can travel into London instead. A ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via London wouldn't be valid at Banbury. If I had a ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via Banbury, I would have to alight at Banbury to catch a train to High Wycombe. So assume that I had a ticket from Reading to High Wycombe via Banbury and this incident took place at Banbury.

 

Each of these scenarios are identical to mine and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever about which station it happened at now does it?

 

This isn't a question about whether or not my ticket was valid for the route I took as I know for a fact that it was!

 

So, you won't tell us the actual route / interchange, and won't tell us which railcard nor the fare paid, either.

 

I can imagine you going to your GP, and saying "I'm unwell. Maybe I've had a cough, or maybe I've had abdominal pain, but I need a prescription. I know what prescription I want (though I'm not telling you which)!"

 

In both circumstances you'll have had an expert willing to offer you advice / help, but you'll have made it impossible for them to use their skills, knowledge & experience.

Why would you want to ask for help but frustrate that help?

 

I'm no expert like OCJ, but I'd prefer to expend my efforts on someone willing to help others help them.

Edited February 22, 2016 by honeybee13
Typo corrected as requested by Bazza.

[lb722]

So, you won't tell us the actual route / interchange, and won't tell us which railcard nor the fare paid, either.

 

I can imagine you going to your GP, and saying "I'm unwell. Maybe I've had a cough, or maybe I've had abdominal pain, but I need a prescription. I know what prescription I want (though I'm not telling you which)!"

Actually, if you want to use going to the doctor's as an analogy, the equivalent would be me going to the doctor to complain about a cough, only for the doctor to ask me irrelevant questions such as where I live and how much rent I pay each month, all of which is done in a roomful of people.

 

In both circumstances you'll have had an expert willing to offer you advice / help, but you'll have made it impossible for them to use their skills, knowledge & experience.

Why would you want to ask for help but frustrate that help?

Pray tell me how naming the station will change anything? Is there a station in the UK where you are not permitted to wait inside for a train? I doubt it very much.

[BazzaS]

Actually, if you want to use going to the doctor's as an analogy, the equivalent would be me going to the doctor to complain about a cough, only for the doctor to ask me irrelevant questions such as where I live and how much rent I pay each month, all of which is done in a roomful of people.

 

In a roomful of people they can see you.

OK : how about making it asking an online doctor in a forum, where people can see your query, but don't know who you are.

A better analogy?

 

The questions regarding the ticket aren't irrelevant - because:

 

You think your ticket wasn't valid. A BTP officer and an RPI seemed to think otherwise ....

 

 

Pray tell me how naming the station will change anything? Is there a station in the UK where you are not permitted to wait inside for a train? I doubt it very much.

 

The station / route, the railcard AND other ticket details (including its cost) affect if the ticket is valid. This point has been made before but instead you want to focus on not naming the station.

Good luck.