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Costco PCN overstay - S&K Car park management

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Hi CAG people.

 

There's a shared free car park for Costco and ToysRus at 30 Waterloo Rd, Liverpool L3 7HY

 

allegedly, the driver of my vehicle parked there for longer than the 3 hours allowed. (by 19 minutes).

 

S&K Car PArk Management have sent a PCN for £78.00

 

and have demanded payment, or to know who the driver was.

 

I thought the action to take was - do nothing, ignore this speculative invoice, however reading more recent sticky posts,

has that advice changed to "respond to them" ?

 

it states, Parking Charge Notice to Registered Keeper, and if I do not provide the drivers details they can recover the charges and additional costs via a debt collector under section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012.

 

 

can anybody please guide me ?

thanks

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Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Yes, the advice hasn't been to ignore for a while. Please bear with us until the forum guys can get here, they'll tell you what to do. :) I've amended your thread title to show the parking company, as this often helps.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi CAG people.

 

There's a shared free car park for Costco and ToysRus at 30 Waterloo Rd, Liverpool L3 7HY

 

allegedly, the driver of my vehicle parked there for longer than the 3 hours allowed. (by 19 minutes).

 

S&K Car PArk Management have sent a PCN for £78.00

 

and have demanded payment, or to know who the driver was.

 

I thought the action to take was - do nothing, ignore this speculative invoice, however reading more recent sticky posts,

has that advice changed to "respond to them" ?

 

it states, Parking Charge Notice to Registered Keeper, and if I do not provide the drivers details they can recover the charges and additional costs via a debt collector under section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012.

 

 

can anybody please guide me ?

thanks

 

Was this ANPR? Or windscreen ticket first?

Date of parking event and date the NTK hit the doormat please.

 

This is an IPC member so don't expect a fair appeal procedure , but you will not have to pay any money to these [problem]...

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Hi, thanks for the replies.

 

Hi, armadillo71, this was a ticket on the screen,

 

the parking event was 4th December 2015,

the PCN states:

Observation from: 11:14

Observation to: 14:19

Reason for issue - 'parked longer than the maximum period permitted'

 

 

the letter from PCN PArking Solutions, S&K Car Park Management Ltd, with the 'SECURE.P' logo

arrived on the 26/01/2016

lots of threatening paragraphs, and £78 bill

 

I can tell you that the car was not parked there at that start time,

 

thanks for any advice

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How do they end up with £78? £60 initial parking charge notice and £18 admin I'll guess...

 

The NTK you have received is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, so there is no keeper liability. Check for yourself if you wish;

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

 

I suggest a simple appeal stating that as RK you are not liable for the charge, as the NTK is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA 2012.

Tell them to address all further correspondence to the driver at the time of the event.

 

State that you were not the driver at the time of the event.

 

Now they will not cancel the charge but you have stated the correct legal position.

 

 

 

Can you get a picture of the signage? Google street is dated and shows no signs..

And do you have any receipts from costco or Toys r us from the parking date?

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Thanks armadillo71,

amazingly the charge started at £15 within 24, then 30 - 60 and yes £18 admin fee,

 

 

I really appreciate your advice, I will get a photo of the signage tomorrow am,

and start lifting cushions and searching pockets for the receipts.. :oops:

 

 

thanks

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Costco's records can instantly confirm your spend on the day, possibly the till time as well - or at least they can for the Membership Card you presented.

(I know/saw this on screen once when getting a manager's approval for a cheque far bigger than my usual spend)

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Costco's records can instantly confirm your spend on the day, possibly the till time as well - or at least they can for the Membership Card you presented.

(I know/saw this on screen once when getting a manager's approval for a cheque far bigger than my usual spend)

 

Which will show a time by which the OP's car hadn't left the car park - but this isn't the issue(s) at hand, which is/ are :

1) What time did the OP's car park up, and

2) can the PPC establish keeper liability, either of which can defeat the PPC......

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Too late to EDIT!

Not the Membership Card you presented - but the Membership Card of the someone in the car, that was presented at the till! ;)

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Too late to EDIT!

Not the Membership Card you presented - but the Membership Card of the someone in the car, that was presented at the till! ;)

 

And I repeat :

"Which will show a time by which the OP's car hadn't left the car park - but this isn't the issue(s) at hand, which is/ are :

1) What time did the OP's car park up, and

2) can the PPC establish keeper liability, either of which can defeat the PPC......"

 

We know when the OP's car was there until.

The OP disputes when the PPC says the car was there from, such that there was no overstay of 3 hours, believing that the PPC is stating too early a time : how does a till time demonstrate that?

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And I repeat :

how does a till time demonstrate that?

 

Ask that of Armadillo.

 

In the final line of Post 5 he asked if the OP had any receipts from Costco or Toys-R-Us.

 

I was (hopefully) assisting the OP cover some of that request if the search of (the Driver's) cushions and pockets proves fruitless.

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Secure Parking are IPC so as already stated, there is no fair appeal service. Unless there is photographic evidence à la UKPC [problem], then debating the timings is a waste of time.

 

OP- Can you post up redacted copies of the NTD and NTK (both sides)please along with the signage. From what you have said they will be interesting...

 

Many parking charge notices are cancelled by the princple ,without having to give any information to the PPC. There is also the hidden genuine shopper clause, meaning that the PPC cannot take the ' charge ' any further if proof is given that the recipient/or other,has spent money on the premises. Now Cost Co or Toys r us may not be the principal as this looks like a retail park, but they probably have the authority to cancel a charge for a genuine shopper.

 

The Op, as RK, is not liable anyway as the NTK is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, so no keeper liability.

 

( But the RK will be presumed to be the driver by the IAS if you do appeal to them.. )

 

Interestingly the NTK is sent by Parking Collections Services who are BPA, but the PPC is IPC. ( unless OP shows not! )

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Too late to EDIT!

Not the Membership Card you presented - but the Membership Card of the someone in the car, that was presented at the till! ;)

The RK is allowed to be the customer.... and in the car...

 

Just they were not the driver.

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I can tell you that the car was not parked there at that start time,

This has slipped by without question. While I don't wish to tar any company with this stance. UKPC got caught doctoring tickets using a loophole where the date/time stamp on the pictures could be manipulated.

You state the car was not there at the time stated. The ONLY explanation that I can think of is that the picture was doctored. Have a look at the pictures and see if there is any similarities between the two, shadows, other cars, something in the distance.

 

As has been mentioned they don't follow PoFA but that doesn't matter much as I can find no court cases in the last year.


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Secure Parking are IPC so as already stated, there is no fair appeal service. Unless there is photographic evidence à la UKPC [problem], then debating the timings is a waste of time.

 

Post #12

 

Pointless letter tennis would ensue without the above imo...

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A simple letter to the parking company saying that the notice to keeper is not compliant with the PoFA and they should cease any further contact with you in this regard.

Collect and keep your other evidence of the errors in the timing on the notice to driver as you may need these later, along with any receipts etc you or your party may have.

Write to the DVLA and ask who has accessed your keeper details and the reason stated for doing so. If it is this parking co and they say it is under the PoFA then aformal complaint as IPC members do not rely on the POFA so they thus have no reasoanable cause to access the KADOE syatem and say that is why they are doing so.

Also, photograph the signage at the site of local to you and post it up here, it is probably so flawed as to be unable to create an contract anyway. Most of the smaller companies post up what can only be described as gibberish

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Hi

thanks for all these replies, sorry I haven't posted the images yet but Ive just been away for a week,

 

I did reply to them with the most basic of paragraphs, stating I was not the driver and they were not compliant with the PoFA,

I addressed it to the company on the PCN, and added the director of S&K names.

 

here's a link (hopefully I can post a link) to photo's of the minuscule signs in that car park, and a dash-cam of driving into the car park and parking without ever coming close to any one of them.

 

I don't know if this makes any difference, but it could be of interest to you guys,

 

thanks so much for your advice.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hc3jk751zcwhmle/AAByuWdD2xQNlbaLyaE1yB_va?dl=0

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OK the sign you photographed as the main sign is not a contract but an invitation to treat.It says you have agreed to pay them £x if you breach any of the conditions and then doesnt list any. Ther are lots of things that you could pick on this sign that also make it a duff contract even if it was decided this sign can create one.

Anyway, this is all grist for teh mll as they snet out their NTK too late to create a keeper liability.

So what to do? As you have sent a letter denying liability then you dont need to do anything else should they continue to send out begging letters or pass the matter over to one of the pet dca's like Debt Recovery Plus or the solicitors Gladstones. Gladstones are also the IPC and IAS all rolled up into one so they charge their members a few quid to send out threatograms and then try and persuade them to take action against the motorist. The parking co invariably lose any defended claims but Gladstones trouser a few hundred for their actions. Nice work if you can get it.

Let us know if you get any more letters but otherwise dont bother them and they may well realise you arent going to play their game and give up.

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Hi ericsbrother,

thank you, that's excellent, I really appreciate the advice, and thanks to the other contributors,

I will post back if I get anything,

 

thanks :)

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Hi,

ok, I got a letter from a "debt resolution specialist", Ultimate Customer Solutions, real company - SolutionLabs LTD,

Ive put the letter in this dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hc3jk751zcwhmle/AAByuWdD2xQNlbaLyaE1yB_va?dl=0

 

it's up to £120.00 now, any guidance appreciated :)

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any dca can be ignored as they have no interest in the matter. This becomes clearer when you ask yourself what consumer credit contract did I sign to make the increase in the amount demanded lawfully binding? As you realise that you didnt sign a contract with them then they must be telling lies therefore anything else they say is unlikely to be true.

If you get a lbe from S&K or a solicitor acting on their behalf come back and we will advise waht to say in response but dont bother wasting a stamp on these chancers

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Hi ericsbrother, thank you, it amazes me, I wonder what people who don't know about CAG do ? its plain robbery of the less knowledgeable (like me),

 

thanks again I really appreciate it

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the private parking industry makes about £200 million a year and a large proportion of this is from places where there is no planning permission for the signage, cameras etc or from unenforceable contracts, poorly positioned or unintelligible signage etc. People in Britain tend to do what they are told because in such a crowded space it is in our group interests to get along with each other. In countries that have more space and a "frontier" mindset they wouldnt dream of taking any notice of this kind of thing and the companies wouldnt thrive there, even if the laws were as biased towards the money maker as they are here. Can you imagine anywhere that has a vast amount of space to create a massive car park then charging to use it? the customer would go elsewhere as the choice of parking place would be almost unlimited

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If you are disputing the charge and they hand it over to a debt collector, can you then tell the DC to return the charge as it is being disputed and should never have bene given to the DC?

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The thing about parking charges is that they are normally not real debts and the dca's used to try and get people to pay know this very well. that is one of the reasons they bung a few quid on the bill for themselves, might as well if someone is mug enough to pay up.

I have played letter tennis with DR+ some years ago and they invented all sorts of fantastic examples as to what powers and rights they have but when it came to the end of the money they had been paid to collect they just went all quiet on me so I never did get that Norwich Pharmacal Order they were promising me when I refused to name the driver of my vehicle. Shame really because I was looking forward to their responses to the points raised as they always amused me. Bit like having a pen pal who doesnt use english as a primary language.

Ignore a dca is always route 1.

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