Jump to content


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 1587 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I'm assuming this relates to your other thread whereby you are unsatisfied with the tribunal's decision that your daughter was employed by Mr X rather than Mrs X.

 

Judicial review is a total non-starter and is simply not appropriate, or possible, for your situation. You may need to read a bit more on the internet about what judicial review actually is, and the kind of situations in which it is used, if you are at all unsure about this.

 

The mechanism for contesting tribunal decisions is the appeals process, not judicial review.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 312
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I can't see how it is an offer "without prejudice", if the case is already concluded and the judgement given.

 

How much is the 25% sum?.

 

How does this fit in with your application for a charging order?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?459367-Employment-Tribunal-Hearing&p=4875156#post4875156

 

How does this fit in with the Regional EAT judge looking at the judgement?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?461480-Judicial-review-protocol&p=4876416#post4876416

Link to post
Share on other sites

Giving the way the same judge has now denied us with yet another order, our costs,the risk of not recovering anything had further increased, but for his actions we would have sat it out and gone for the full judgement award which would include costs.

 

I will now hold him accountable for forcing us into that position, which and not for the first time, has been detrimental to my daughters case since day 1.

 

He needs to start giving answers now, because I am on his case now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Giving the way the same judge has now denied us with yet another order, our costs,the risk of not recovering anything had further increased, but for his actions we would have sat it out and gone for the full judgement award which would include costs.

 

I will now hold him accountable for forcing us into that position, which and not for the first time, has been detrimental to my daughters case since day 1.

 

He needs to start giving answers now, because I am on his case now.

 

Is the "he" : the judge or Mr Smith?

 

If there has been a further order : I don't see how anyone can give reliable advice without knowing the current status.

 

What was the most recent order (and what did it deny)?

What is the current judgment (value, and against which one or more parties).'

What applications / appeals remain in progress?

 

Any reply given without this information is likely to be, at best, guesswork.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The judge has refused to deal with the costs application, and is maintaining that Mrs Smith is the correct legal entity, which even if true, which is denied,would be shown within the case and the evidence presented before the actual trial.

 

The judges actions or lack of action has now forced my daughter not only to agree to settle for an amount, less than awarded, but also her costs because the judge would not deal with that application.

 

BUT FOR the judge wrongly id Mrs Smith as liable for the debt, and BUT FOR the same judge failing to deal with costs, my daughter would and should not have been put into a position of accepting a reduced amount, but had no choice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The judge has refused to deal with the costs application, and is maintaining that Mrs Smith is the correct legal entity, which even if true, which is denied,would be shown within the case and the evidence presented before the actual trial.

 

The judges actions or lack of action has now forced my daughter not only to agree to settle for an amount, less than awarded, but also her costs because the judge would not deal with that application.

 

BUT FOR the judge wrongly id Mrs Smith as liable for the debt, and BUT FOR the same judge failing to deal with costs, my daughter would and should not have been put into a position of accepting a reduced amount, but had no choice.

 

it's far too early to say that until you've had the debt collectors in.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Link to post
Share on other sites
The judge has refused to deal with the costs application, and is maintaining that Mrs Smith is the correct legal entity, which even if true, which is denied,would be shown within the case and the evidence presented before the actual trial.

 

The judges actions or lack of action has now forced my daughter not only to agree to settle for an amount, less than awarded, but also her costs because the judge would not deal with that application.

 

BUT FOR the judge wrongly id Mrs Smith as liable for the debt, and BUT FOR the same judge failing to deal with costs, my daughter would and should not have been put into a position of accepting a reduced amount, but had no choice.

 

What's happening with the Regional Judge's input?

Have you appealed??

 

How goes the judicial review (if at all, bearing in mind that a JR application seems ill advised on the info to date)

 

Do you want advice?

Are you posting to update us? To "crow"? To tell us "ya, boo, sucks!"?

To tell us how well (or not!) you are proceeding?

 

By now I'm unsure who the judgment is against, and if they have assets to enforce against.

I'm unsure who your applications for a charging order, order to attend for questioning and TPDO application were against, and the status of those (as if against Mr Smith solely, they may have been declined ....)

 

If you are into wacky attempts based on having read of a legal concept being applied, even if applied in very different circumstances:

A) why not join the judge as a third party? 😝

B) taking it to ECHR! (Hey, it's no less inappropriate than a JR application ............) 😇

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who says a JR is inappropriate, you, that is just an opinion, assumption and by no means set in stone.

 

If the judge has been a naughty boy, surely a JR would establish that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Who says a JR is inappropriate, you, that is just an opinion, assumption and by no means set in stone.

 

If the judge has been a naughty boy, surely a JR would establish that.

 

I'm not the only person to say that JR is inappropriate, and yes, it is "set in stone" that they will decline a JR application if you should, instead, have appealed, and you haven't appealed as the correct choice of way forward.

 

From your "JR protocol" thread

I'm assuming this relates to your other thread whereby you are unsatisfied with the tribunal's decision that your daughter was employed by Mr X rather than Mrs X.

 

Judicial review is a total non-starter and is simply not appropriate, or possible, for your situation. You may need to read a bit more on the internet about what judicial review actually is, and the kind of situations in which it is used, if you are at all unsure about this.

 

The mechanism for contesting tribunal decisions is the appeals process, not judicial review.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Who says a JR is inappropriate, you, that is just an opinion, assumption and by no means set in stone.

 

If the judge has been a naughty boy, surely a JR would establish that.

 

Site team member steampowered posted on your previous JR thread, the last post.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?461480-Judicial-review-protocol

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not the only person to say that JR is inappropriate, and yes, it is "set in stone" that they will decline a JR application if you should, instead, have appealed, and you haven't appealed as the correct choice of way forward.

 

 

http://www.publiclawproject.org.uk/data/resources/6/PLP_Short_Guide_3_1305.pdf

Section 4, the foot of page 3.

 

If there are other effective ways of challenging decisions or delays, you are usually expected to use those. The following may be adequate alternatives;

• A statutory right of appeal against a disputed decision, such as to a social security appeal tribunal against a decision about your entitlement to benefit. There is usually a strict time limit for appeal so you need to make sure you appeal in time.

 

"I'm Andy, & I have no clue" won't open the door for you to start a JR if you haven't appealed.

 

http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2013/06/21/judicial-review-almost-new-possible-where-there-is-a-statutory-right-of-appeal/

 

It is well established that judicial review is only available where there is no other adequate way to challenge a decision.

 

You can say it is "only Bazza's opinion", but I've quoted firm sources,

Others have posted the same conclusion, and you haven't stated why I'm wrong and you are correct beyond:

"Andy says he's right & the rest of you are wrong, nerr, nerr, nerr!"

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bazza, please.

 

So, do you now accept that judicial review is inappropriate whilst you haven't appealed?.

All that time and effort (across 3 threads) arguing, which you could have used to move your daughter's case forward, getting help here if you started providing the relevant info.

 

How do you try and get the outcome you are asking for? (n.b., this still may not be in your daughter's best interest if it is changing your existing judgement) : Not judicial review if you haven't appealed. Which hints at the correct route to take.

 

A bit like when you were asking which the outstanding questions were ... the answer was there if you:

a) read back, and

b) are willing to open up to the advice offered on the thread(s!).

 

I'm not sure you'll get far with claiming the judge has behaved improperly

 

If you are discussing opinions vs. facts, it appears these are your opinions, but no judicial authority has yet agreed with you, and you may not make yourself look entirely stable.

 

You are better with "an error of law was made because....." and "an error in decision regarding fact was made with ......"

(I do hope the "....." doesn't prevent you from accepting the opinion, since you previously highlighted my use of "..........")

 

Why explain this by malice / corruption (noting that you haven't yet produced any evidence of this beyond "the judge didn't agree with me"). when it would be explainable either by:

a) judge's error, not malice, or

b) Andy's errror.

 

2 parties to litigation. At least one won't get what they want, and if everyone who doesn't get want they want claims "that the judge has behaved improperly" ; Does this mean the whole judiciary is corrupt? No, I suggest it is more likely that it is just a reaction of someone not getting their way (absent other proof!)

 

You haven't produced proof beyond "Andy didn't get his way, so the judge must be corrupt!"

Edited by citizenB
removed quote
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your advice, Ericsbrother and Steampowered.

 

I am not contesting the tribunals decision, I am contesting how the assigned judge dealt with the case, regardless of the judgement, but for the cross examination during the trial the judgment would have been different.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for your advice, Ericsbrother and Steampowered.

 

I am not contesting the tribunals decision, I am contesting how the assigned judge dealt with the case, regardless of the judgement, but for the cross examination during the trial the judgment would have been different.

 

The answer lies within GM's post. It is a shame you haven't thanked them for their contribution.

Judges have a very wide discretion and case management powers. Be careful with any appeal or Judicial Review.
Link to post
Share on other sites
The answer lies within GM's post. It is a shame you haven't thanked them for their contribution.

 

Wrong again Barry, the answer does not lie with GM, thank you GM for your input, appreciated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wrong again Barry, the answer does not lie with GM, thank you GM for your input, appreciated.

 

More contradiction from Andy, unsupported by substance / justification.

 

Can you clarify (probably not, either "can't", or "won't"!), why the answer doesn't lie within GM's post?

 

(There is a difference, BTW between "lies within GM's post" and "lies with GM"!)

 

The reason the answer lies within GM's post was that GM correctly identifies that judges have wide case management powers and discretion.

 

You have come nowhere near convincing anyone but yourself on this thread that the:

That the Judge has behaved improperly.

 

It is all supposition, dressed up with a smattering of misapplied legal terminology across 3 threads (& counting....)

(Examples ;your misapplication of "equality of arms" and "judicial review")

 

So, my conclusions (some of which do involve a degree of assumption) but which are based on your inability to accept reasoned contribution (such as the advice on JR) :

Your daughter had a strong case against the company that unfairly dismissed her.

Your daughter won her case, based on its strength, despite your involvement, not due to your involvement.

Your daughter hasn't yet recovered her judgement, and may not, as you mire her progress with a confused and ill focused approach (talk of judicial review, 3 separate applications [again, with no reply to pertinent questions!])

 

If you had answers to those questions that supported your position it would be easy to provide them, but since it appears you can't, you revert to rhetoric and unsubstantiated allegations ("Mr Smith this" and "the judge that")

 

Might I be wrong? Sure, given the limited information of substance you have given, but equally : why then aren't you giving the substantive information.

 

I can only hope your daughter gets to read these 3 threads and gets independent advice on if she is wise to allow you to continue (to continue to ignore good advice)

 

I suspect it would increase her chances of recovering more of what she is owed rather than the fools errands of judicial review, and getting Mr Smith named on the judgement (who cares if he is named, if she recovers the money from the company! that would be his punishment!!)

 

So, it comes back to an earlier question : what matters most, recovering the compensation or "making Mr Smith pay" (& now "making the judge out to be naughty, too).

Your reply was that recovering the judgement was your priority, but the lie has been given to that by the focus of your posts.

 

Judgment coinciding with assets, enforce, sorted.

 

If you still don't know where the assets are / if there are enough assets, have you wasted her time / put her through the stress of the hearing / raised her expectation, all for naught?

Edited by citizenB
Link to post
Share on other sites

BUT FOR the judge wrongly id Mrs Smith as liable for the debt, and BUT FOR the same judge failing to deal with costs, my daughter would and should not have been put into a position of accepting a reduced amount, but had no choice.

 

Since you've had to put "but for" in 'shouty Caps' (twice) : it appears you have discovered another legal term to misapply.

 

"But for" is relevant when discussing causation (of a tort), introduced in Barnett v Chelsea & Kensington Hospital

http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Barnett-v-Chelsea--and--Kensington-Hospital.php

Are you planning on suing the judge for damages? Another non-starter.

 

If not, why the stress on "but for"??

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wrong again Barry, the answer does not lie with GM, thank you GM for your input, appreciated.

 

You're welcome, but it may help us further if you can tell us what evidence the judge ignored at the trial and why you are so adamant that Mr is the owner of the Company and not Mrs?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for your advice, Ericsbrother and Steampowered.

 

I am not contesting the tribunals decision, I am contesting how the assigned judge dealt with the case, regardless of the judgement, but for the cross examination during the trial the judgment would have been different.

 

This sounds as if you're happy with the outcome. Are you going to pursue the option of enforcing the judgement?

 

If I were your daughter, I might want to just accept the money and move on now.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello

 

If you believe that Mr X should be liable rather than Mrs X, I think you would need to appeal the judgment. It seems the judge found that Mrs X was the employer, presumably based on the evidence in front of him and the evidence he heard from the various witnesses, so if you believe that decision was incorrectly dealt with, you would need to appeal - most likely with the goal of asking the point to be reconsidered by another Employment Tribunal.

 

It is very difficult to appeal costs findings. Unlike the situation in court cases above 10k, costs are supposed to be exceptional in the Employment Tribunal and are only granted in a small number of cases (see http://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/employment-tribunal-awards-statistics-2014-2015 - it works out at about 5% of cases if you crunch the numbers, and most of these are against claimants who have initiated hopeless claims). I thought it was worth having a go at asking for costs given the circumstances of your case but there was never any guarantee and very difficult to contest or appeal any decision not to award costs (did you ever actually make a formal application asking for costs???)

 

As previously advised, judicial review is a complete non-starter. There is a proper appeals process in place where you believe that a Tribunal decision has been made incorrectly.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Bazza, please.

 

So, do you now accept that judicial review is inappropriate whilst you haven't appealed?.

All that time and effort (across 3 threads) arguing, which you could have used to move your daughter's case forward, getting help here if you started providing the relevant info.

 

How do you try and get the outcome you are asking for? (n.b., this still may not be in your daughter's best interest if it is changing your existing judgement) : Not judicial review if you haven't appealed. Which hints at the correct route to take.

 

A bit like when you were asking which the outstanding questions were ... the answer was there if you:

a) read back, and

b) are willing to open up to the advice offered on the thread(s!).

 

I'm not sure you'll get far with claiming the judge has behaved improperly

 

If you are discussing opinions vs. facts, it appears these are your opinions, but no judicial authority has yet agreed with you, and you may not make yourself look entirely stable.

 

You are better with "an error of law was made because....." and "an error in decision regarding fact was made with ......"

(I do hope the "....." doesn't prevent you from accepting the opinion, since you previously highlighted my use of "..........")

 

Why explain this by malice / corruption (noting that you haven't yet produced any evidence of this beyond "the judge didn't agree with me"). when it would be explainable either by:

a) judge's error, not malice, or

b) Andy's errror.

 

2 parties to litigation. At least one won't get what they want, and if everyone who doesn't get want they want claims "that the judge has behaved improperly" ; Does this mean the whole judiciary is corrupt? No, I suggest it is more likely that it is just a reaction of someone not getting their way (absent other proof!)

 

You haven't produced proof beyond "Andy didn't get his way, so the judge must be corrupt!"

 

Andy did get his own way though Barry, Andy got justice for his own daughter, and WON her the case for her, made even sweeter by beating a bottom feeding solicitor at his own game :) Andy has just secured a nice little compo award 13k plus, and if Andy could be bothered, would if bothered show the judge in the case, is on a par with Mr Smith, a corrupt little no mark, who when and if challenged by someone with morals and respect for a lady, would be outed. Above all, your obsession with me and the very fact that i have got under your skin, Mr Know-it-all, just puts the icing on the cake :):) xx

Link to post
Share on other sites
Andy did get his own way though Barry, Andy got justice for his own daughter, and WON her the case for her, made even sweeter by beating a bottom feeding solicitor at his own game :) Andy has just secured a nice little compo award 13k plus, and if Andy could be bothered, would if bothered show the judge in the case, is on a par with Mr Smith, a corrupt little no mark, who when and if challenged by someone with morals and respect for a lady, would be outed. Above all, your obsession with me and the very fact that i have got under your skin, Mr Know-it-all, just puts the icing on the cake :):) xx

 

My "obsession" is with your daughter succeeding, and the risk you might mean she didn't recover anything or got less than she was due.

If she has secured recovering her judgement sum : all is well.

 

I'm glad she has got her compensation, and your obsession with Mr Smith and the judge hasn't interfered with that to the extent she got nothing.

Wasn't it £17k+ though?

Where did the extra 4K go?

 

The 13k came from the company / Mrs Smith?

This is what we've been telling you to focus on!

"Judgment coinciding with assets, enforce, sorted"

: glad my advice sunk in eventually.

 

At least now we don't have to try to get you to see sense re: judicial review, equality of arms, and any other legal buzzwords you have tripped over on the internet

Link to post
Share on other sites
Andy did get his own way though Barry, Andy got justice for his own daughter, and WON her the case for her, made even sweeter by beating a bottom feeding solicitor at his own game :) Andy has just secured a nice little compo award 13k plus, and if Andy could be bothered, would if bothered show the judge in the case, is on a par with Mr Smith, a corrupt little no mark, who when and if challenged by someone with morals and respect for a lady, would be outed. Above all, your obsession with me and the very fact that i have got under your skin, Mr Know-it-all, just puts the icing on the cake :):) xx

 

Wow, I think what you meant to say was thank you. Not a borderline personal attack because you didn't see things from the same perspective.

  • Haha 2

My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wow, I think what you meant to say was thank you. Not a borderline personal attack because you didn't see things from the same perspective.

 

But I did get thanks (at least initially!), see Andy's post of 4th Feb, no.27 (that thread now closed).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?459367-Employment-Tribunal-Hearing/page2

A special mention to BazzaS who has helped me out at the most crucial stage of this litigation, thank you.

 

How quickly I went from 'hero' to 'zero'.

 

Of course, this may be because I suddenly changed my nature and position. Then again, you mention "borderline personal" ... did you mean this as in 'borderline personality disorder', where the sufferer has difficult in seeing others other than in a polarized manner ("100 % for them, or 100% against, and often, if the other doesn't completely agree with the sufferer, the other must be "100% against", making it hard for the sufferer to accept advice , respond to questions or listen to feedback)?

 

Did you mean you thought it bordered on being a personal attack, or both?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bazza, I'll leave the clinical diagnoses to those qualified to make them.

 

It just saddened me to read that a difference in opinions led to the op becoming derisive and using playground tactics to illustrate his assumed 'win' over the evil that is freely given advice.

My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...