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    • POFA plays no part in limiting court costs.  costs recovery under the small claims track is very limited   2 cases heard together? 1st you've told us about this....        
    • Just a general comment - as I know nothing about legal procedures...   I agree with what I think BankFodder is suggesting - it really ought to be a straightforward question of a breach of contract.  You've paid for a service and the other party (or their sub-contractor) has failed to perform that service - safe delivery to the addressee.  It seems daft to me that the risk of non-delivery gets passed back to you because you've not paid for insurance against their failure to perform their responsibilities.  It's an inherently unfair* business model that has crept up by stealth, assisted by the growth of internet shopping.  Of course, a court may not agree...   I also agree with BF that you should be able to do some research yourself, and you should see this as an opportunity for self-directed learning as well as self-help!  You can always check back with BF, Andyorch and dx100uk that your understanding is correct.  You might get some ideas for final year dissertation - it's a bit of an academic problem with real-life commercial implications.   *Of course, in the absence of this business model, courier fees would go up, but I would argue that's a fairer way of spreading the risk of loss/damage etc   (PS - I was a law student a looooooooong time ago.  In your position I'd have tried my tutors as a sounding board as well.  I also thought SBU had it's own law clinic - although the advice is likely to be quite basic unless somebody sees this as an "interesting" problem)
    • Thanks EB, I will catchup on the mentioned thread as I had used it before the hearing.   I went for hearing. Rep approached mentioning settlement, talking about them having a strong case to which I pointed out their bundle which they were going through that it says Excel here so aren't you here for the wrong company. They mentioned sister companies, I mentioned companies house and then I said let's leave it to the judge they went away from me. The rep went into a room presumably to call their firm Elms Legal I think probably for advice.   We ended up being the last hearing before lunch, as the Usher called out our names and said the judge will call you in shortly. The rep came over saying something like I'm surprised you're going in without submitting a WS!   I said it has been served they said well I haven't seen it, when was it sent, do you have copies as I could get the Usher to copy, I said I may, rep- you either do or you don't, I said well we will have to put this in front of the judge now.   Inside the rep said to the judge about my WS not being served and they asked me on multiple occasions for the WS I said 5 minutes before coming in is not multiple occasions. The judge said they had my WS along with an index of papers I had sent in that they have been looking at.   The rep started with their page contract and terms and conditions picture in their bundle saying they have a valid contract and that in the Tariff /T&C picture it mentioned about entering into a contract with VCS.   The judge asked me what I made of that I argued where is the contract giving them, a 3rd party, authority from Excel to issue proceedings in their own rights? The judge said to the rep, Defendant not accepting this so we are not getting anywhere rep raised WS issue again saying they asked on multiple occasions, again I repeated what 5 minutes before coming in. I said I had Cert of Posting.   The rep mentioned about being given a few minutes to read it and I said I had a copy but the judge was saying it's near lunch and it will take too much time even though the rep said there is still 35 minutes left.   I said the WS was served see COP but the judge said they may have lost it etc so to send it again. I said the rep could have a copy now but the rep was like I couldn't take pictures of it and send back to my client as they only get things from them via email.   I said you could post it but the judge said the rep is saying they can't use post for whatever reason so if I could send it again. Case adjourned.   The rep asked about costs and judge said reserved and I asked about my loss of earnings and that I would have to get leave booked again. Reserved seemed to be the answer but the judge was apologising about being the last morning hearing and said he would make sure we were first next time and the rep asked for an hour instead of 45 minutes so judge asked me and I said ok. The rep asked about the reason for adjourning to give to their client as they would have had to pay them to attend. Outside at the ushers desk the rep had spoken to the Usher to make a copy from mine (didn't accept it Infront of the judge) and also asked to see the COP and I obliged saying I deem this served now but the rep said you have an order/instruction from the judge to send to VCS. I regret giving them a copy thinking I should have said you will have it once I send it again to VCS. Whilst inside, the judge said as the hearing never started it wouldn't be infront of him again and also the rep said it would probably be someone else as she also wasn't the person named in their WS. As per POFA my understanding is one cannot be made to pay costs more than in the NTK. As it will now be a 2nd hearing, 2 days off work for me and 2 representations for them, will there be double AL for me to claim if I win or double expenses if they win?   There was supposed to  be 2 cases heard together but I only had WS for this one am I supposed to have asked for another WS? Will they be claiming the fee/expenses for both cases with one hearing yet I could only claim for the 2 days AL?   What do you make of what happened at the hearing from their rep, maybe they realised it won't be straightforward especially when it was a judge they were not aware of perhaps they conferred with their team about ways to handle aswell as ways to escape? Thanks      
    • the sil landlord, it was for £20k plus he added £18k for rent and utilities bills.
    • Hi all,    Quick update. I still haven't heard anything from Excel regarding the SAR.  I'm hoping the one from Elms Legal will turn up tomorrow in the post! 
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Dropping off guests to Leonardo hotel Heathrow - received PCN Parking Eye

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Hi All,


sorry to trouble you.



I just don't understand this.

We went to drop off some family guests (who were from overseas) that had been staying with us to Leonardo Hotel Near Heathrow.



The entrance to the hotel is a via a private drive to the rear.

We helped them with their luggage,

helped them check-in

- at no point did the staff ask us whether we had a car or any charges for waiting.



The check-in took over 15mins,

we then helped them with their luggage to their rooms and said our good-byes and left the hotel.


Received a PCN just a over a week later stating we had stayed 40mins and charge is £100 discounted to £60 if paid within 14 days.


I rang the hotel,

the unfriendly staff went on the defensive,

saying there are 19 signs all round the hotel, in the lift etc.


How does a hotel expect guests to be dropped off

- just park up and throw the luggage out and wave out the car window

as we speed off in fear of getting a parking charge.

This is really below the belt behaviour.


The hotel sent a short abrupt email stating that I had to call parking eye to deal with any issues

- the number they gave me is the payment tel number which only deals with payments.


Please could you advise what is the best way to do deal with this.


I would normally ignore these type of letters,

but I understand Parking Eye typically takes people to the court.


Thank you.

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what is the date of the event and when did you get the demand?

knowing those will help us a little if the procedures havent been followed.



email everyone you can find on their corporate website

and complain as the signage is pifflingly small and unreadable on google streetview,

so unreadable from a vehicle.



I would be telling them that you will be doing a recharge on the card that paid for the visit

unless they sort out this problem and offer some kind of apology for their staff's rudeness.



There are no signs at the entrance or any that are visible from the public highway

and also no indication that the road at the back of the hotel is a private road

so no-one would be looking for signage written in tiny fonts.



offer a review on tripadvisor and any other rating website and warn perople that you have been robbed by a condition of business that has not been given prior notice and has been rudely brushed off by the local management.



make sure that HQ know that you are going to slate them and give them an opportunity to do the right thing first.


They can do something about this but wont unless it hurts their pockets


After that we will deal with PE if necessary.

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I have rattled their cage a little so contact the general manager Diane McTeague and see where it get you




I shall let her know to expect your contact

  • Confused 1

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She is expecting your email so hopefully you can get the matter resolved. Let us know what happens so we can gird up our loins should the matter have to be taken further.

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Thank you ericsbrother for your prompt and very helpful posts.


I've been out most of the afternoon so couldn't get back to you sooner.


I shall send an email to the address you have given and report back - thank you for the contact.



I did go on the main website to see who I could email,

they had a ;contact us' which I used for the the london heathrow

- think this got routed to the front desk

who just sent the abrupt email saying I should contact Parking Eye.


I have already submitted a tripadvisor venting my frustration at this. I did tweet them as well.


Here's hoping they can see some common sense and some basic level of decency of how we treat people/guests.


For info, the date of the incident was 21.01.16

the times on the PCN are arrival: 19:09 and depart time: 19:52,

total time 43mins.

I received the PCN yesterday 01.02.16

Edited by swift03

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I emailed the general manager, Diane, she replied back with an attachment of the parking eye signage plan! she also pointed out they have over 20 signs around the hotel, she also said as the owner of the car it is my responsibility to ensure I pay for parking charges. She concluded by saying that I should contact Parking Eye using the telephone number on the back of the PCN. The only number on the PCN is for the payments line only. There is no option to talk to someone.


Not quite the helpful advice I was expecting. I would hate to go to her for help, she'd probably turn round and say its all your fault. Let's just say I'm a strong believer in Karma.


I cannot remember seeing any signs with the tariff clearly visible, when your going to drop some guests off to a hotel, I wasn't really thinking that I would have to pay to drop people off. I wasn't staying there for dinner or the night - if I was, I would have clearly enquired about parking charges. Also much of the time was taken up by the check-in process.


I did find a number for Parking Eye, the advisor basically said, nothing they can do either and I would have to follow the appeal process.


I did email the general manger, Diane, again to ask her, I would be very grateful, she has in her power to tell Parking Eye to cancel this ticket. She did not reply back.


Hotels operate in the hospitality industry, this hotel ethos is an insult to the word hospitality.

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Is the hotel part of a chain ?

Help us to keep on helping

Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums



This site is run solely on donations


My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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You should now appeal to Parking Eye - in writing, don't ever phone - using all the usual criteria but especially signage Was it dark when you arrived because if it was then that strengthens your hand considerably.


You could also email the ever helpful manager at the hotel and remind her that the hotel is equally and jointly responsible for the actions of their agents and that the hotel could be on the wrong end of a costly claim if PEye try their luck at a court case. Copy this email into Leonardo Hotels' head office in Berlin. The company behind the Heathrow set up was incorporated only last year and its two directors both give their correspondence addresses at the hotel but no email addresses.


You should, in any event, post a truthful account of your experiences, on Trip Advisor to alert others.

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Is the hotel part of a chain ?


Yes, I've not heard of them before, but from their website they do have hotels world wide, I think this particular hotel, Leonardo Hotel Heathrow, was formerly Holiday Inn.

It's a nice hotel, let down by shameful staff.


Also, I did a review on TripAdvisor (accurate, fair and completely honest based on our experience), it was taken down twice. (apparently they don't allow reviews for external parking companies.)

Edited by swift03

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she didnt like the bad review on Tripadvisor, tough,

dont employ companies that screw your customers for more money than the hotel visit is worth.


no need to worry as you can now appeal to PE yourself and then to POPLA.

This will cost PE money and time to show they have a right to make a claim and they wont be able to.



Leonardo Hotels dont own the land to the contract with PE they have is worthless.

Also, get on to Hillingdon Council planning dept and ask them if either Leonardo Hotels

or PE have been granted planning permission for the 19 signs.



When you speak to the planners you must be clear about what signage you are referring to

as they will undoubtedly have PP for their big red signs.



The PE ones will be of a more recent date than those and yes, they are subject to a planning app,

even though it is then granted on the nod.

NO PP, then no contract as it is a criminal offence to have the signs there and you cannot enter into a criminal compact.


Answer to ell-enn yes they are a German company


Also note,

grovelling requests will get you nowhere,

you should have told her that is will cost her employers money

and a lot of bad publicity to continue with this illogical stance.



Go to the german HQ web page and email the names listed for the various heads of servcies

and tell them that they have a system in place that is doing great damage to their business.



If you find out about the PP first and there isnt any, tell them that PE are breaking the law and really shouldnt be associating themselves with criminal activity.


Post up the signage plan and also the picture of the sign at the desk-

surely she sent you a copy of that having made so much fuss about its presence!


The trick to beating these nonsensical demands is to know more than they do about their statement,

for example she says that PE issued a fine-has she offered any evidence of which court handed down this conviction to you?



Read a big wodge of the threads here and you will get a feel for what is normal

and what the parking co's like to tell you is true when it isnt actually the case.

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They are a big chain but only the one hotel in the UK.


Write the review based on a visit to the hotel, you only got as far as checkin, and mention the parking. I've seen parking mentioned in other reviews that were just as unfavourable

The hotel has a Facebook page too!

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Find out where their head office is and contact them.


The external parking companies are acting on the instructions of the hotel - so it's still a service supplied by the hotel and therefore open for criticism

Help us to keep on helping

Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums



This site is run solely on donations


My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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ericsbrother - re: the tripadvisor review

- I did email her to say my review was based on how her abrupt staff handled the call

and the subsequent email I received from their 'Contact Us' page

- which simply stated to contact Parking Eye.



Had she intervened and cancelled the ticket,

I would have amended my review to show the hotel and the manager in a favourable light.


I've had a reply back from TA, it's semantics around wording, so will try again.


Attached is the signage doc she sent me.

This is the only doc she sent me,

she didn't send me the sign at the desk.



I never went to the desk - the guests went their to check-in,

I waited just by the side of the entrance,

they have some seating area and I was waiting there with their luggage.


It was dark (7pm), I didn't park in their actual car park,

but in a lay-by just past the entrance.

I did not see any of their tariff signs.


Thanks for all your advice guys and support

- I will definitely fight this all the way and follow your advice.


I'll email Leonardo hotel HQ and inform them of this very bad practice

which will only serve to give their hotel a bad reputation along with unhelpful staff behaviour.

(I shudder to think how helpful their concierge service is!)


I'll contact Hillingdon Council and find out about the PP re: signs.


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first of all,

the sign at the entrance is not visible on google streetview,



secondly it refers to other signs that are unreadable from the drivers seat in a car, again streetview supports this.



Also, as the 1st sign has no terms and relies on the second sign

it is not a contract but an invitation to treat so no contract may be formed automatically,

you have to then consider and accept the terms or choose to ignore them.

Your choice, not theirs.


Now have you spoken to Hillingdon Council planning dept about the PP,

This is a very important move on your part as if they dont have PP then they are stuffed.

best to know this before you appeal to PE and subsequently POPLA.


Also if no PP then a complaint to the council about thier criminality with acc to the big names in Germany

about this as the hotel are ultimately responsible for the application

and they are the ones who can get done for displaying advertising signs

(which is legally what they are) without it.



PE's thoughts on this are unimportant and tough if they cant create a contract

because someone else failed to write a letter.


Feel free to post your thought on the other travel and hotel review sites

as long as you are expressing an honest opinion there is little that can be done to challenge.



Again, you may want to wait to see about the planning as it will add some meat to the bones.

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I have a similar problem as you. Have you managed to sort yours out?

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the OP went all quiet so we dont know what happened in the end. However, I believe the signage there is inadequate to form a contract so tell us your story in a new thread and we will try and help.

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Hi guys,


really sorry I haven't responded,

work life took over in a big way so didn't have time to deal with this.

I didn't even get round to doing an appeal.



They've kept sending letters,

think the last one I had about a month ago now, saying its letter before court action.



The letter cites the beavis case.

I've not heard anything since.



If it does goto court then I'll try and fight it, hope the judge sees common sense.

The google streetview/maps shows when this hotel was a holiday inn than the leonardo hotel it is now.


I've got too much workload on at the moment but if it does goto court I'll fight it.


ericsbrother, special thanks for your help.

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I spent a considerable amount of effort badgering the management of this hotel company on your behalf and they had agreed to do the necessaries with you directly and it turns out you have done nothing when a simple email to them the same day you first posted here would have killed the matter.

If you come here looking for help you have to help yourself as well and now this will rumble on because you cant be bothered.

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ericsbrother - I am truly grateful for you support and the effort you went to. I am sorry I let you down. Though I did email the management, if you look at post #5, you'll see that the manageress responded quite abruptly with the signage around the hotel. Like you say, she probably didn't like the bad review I left on TripAdvisor.


I appreciate that you are taking time out of your day to help others and myself. But high pressure work matters took over, plus overseas travelling.


If I did ever meet you, I would definitely buy you a round.

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