14 year old Liability order

[gibbo1969]

In October 2002 I was employed as a holding manager for a pub company running a pub in Liverpool.

 

About 10 weeks later, I recieved notification that the pub company had since sold the pub to Enterprise Inns, who asked would I remain at the site to run the establishment until a suitable tenant could be found.

 

In March 2003 following arguments and issues with Enterprise Inns, I left the property, or more to the point, they sought an eviction notice asking me to leave, which I believe was all legal and above board.

 

About 5 years later, I received a letter from a Bailiff coompany regarding unpaid business rates amounting to £7100 for the period I was running the pub.

 

I rang Liverpool council who took note that I was disagreeing with the liability order, and thats the last i heard till about 3 years ago when yet again they contacted me about the liability order again. So I rang them yet again, told them I was not liable for the business rates, and yet again nothing more until now.

 

Now they have appointed Rossendales to come to my house to collect the outstanding amount of £6880. I have contacted Rossendales and they have said they would not cease action until the council tell them to.

 

I was never liable for this debt because I was simply a caretaker manager, never a business owner. My job was to run the pub on their behalf, getting paid a self employed % of the takings.

 

I have written to the council to tell them I want to appeal the liability order, but being honest, I don't have a clue actually how to do it. Is there anyone who can help with some advice on what precisely I need to be doing.

[havinastella]

I have moved your thread to the bailiffs forum where you will receive more tailored help.

 

You don't need to do anything.

[gibbo1969]

thank you

[brassnecked]

You were always an employee, and occupying the living quarters as part of your job, presumably as part of your salary package?

[mikeymack2002]

As this was not your business surely its the responsibility of the brewery? Send the LA the information and ask them to verify the situation with the brewery, this should take care of the debt..

[gibbo1969]

As this was not your business surely its the responsibility of the brewery? Send the LA the information and ask them to verify the situation with the brewery, this should take care of the debt..

 

Herein lies the problem. The company I was employed by no longer exists as it was a holding company. They acted on behalf of the owners of the pub. The owners then sold the pub to Enterprise inns, who themselves have now sold the pub on to someone else.

 

So as far as I can find out, there is not one scrap of paperwork left which can be used as proof that I was never the business owner.

[gibbo1969]

You were always an employee, and occupying the living quarters as part of your job, presumably as part of your salary package?

 

Yes, I was paid a % of the takings as a wage, with live in accomodation provided as part of the deal. I was self employed in so far as I had to pay my own tax and national insurance, but all the bills were the responsibility of the company.

[brassnecked]

Yes, I was paid a % of the takings as a wage, with live in accomodation provided as part of the deal. I was self employed in so far as I had to pay my own tax and national insurance, but all the bills were the responsibility of the company.

They could be taking your self employment and occupation of the premises as reason to chase to chase, presumably the License to sell alcohol on the premises was in your name. You could send them all the details you have on the ownership. No doubt other Caggers will be along soon.

[mikeymack2002]

I think tax records and insurances and the like could help? As an SE person HMRC have better records as would the insurance company. Just a thought here...

[gibbo1969]

I've written to the council explaining that I should never have been named as the person liable for the business rates and asked them to suspend any bailiff action until this can be sorted out.

 

Rang Rossendales, who in their defence ( which doesn't happen often ) were very helpful, and have spoken to the bailliff and explained the situation to him so he is aware of it.

 

I have done a land registry check to see who owns the building and when they purchased it, and as I suspected, the people that owned the building back in 2002 are no longer the owners, so there is no paperwork whatsoever to say who was supposed to be paying the bills.

 

Just got to wait I suppose and see what Liverpool council say, but from what the woman on the phone was saying, its not an easy task getting a Liability Order removed, and amazingly, she says I may end up having to pay because its my fault that its now 13 years since the liability order was granted and the onus was on me to get it removed quickly, even though she freely admits it could well have been issued wrongly in the first place.

[sillygirl1]

Why not get the local MP involved, the council won't like it one little bit and may have to back down.

 

Whenever you phone, back up your call with a written letter, otherwise things may be 'forgotten' by the council.

[gibbo1969]

Why not get the local MP involved, the council won't like it one little bit and may have to back down.

 

Whenever you phone, back up your call with a written letter, otherwise things may be 'forgotten' by the council.

 

Thanks, I have learnt from this situation that councils will talk for hours on phones, they deny they know anything about it. I've rung them countless times about this, and each time because I've heard nothing more thought they'd dealt with it. Apparantly not.

 

I've emailed them and have a confirmation of receipt, so they cannot now deny that I am objecting to this liability order.

 

Just have to wait and see what they say now. If they've waited this long to chase the debt, then god knows how long it will take them to sort it all out..

[brassnecked]

Do contact your MP as sillygirl suggests, it may focus the council's anal retentive Officers attention.

[gibbo1969]

Just been involved in a very heated argument with someone from Liverpool City council

 

Apparantly according to them, the responsibility is on me to prove I do not owe the money because I would have received a bill in 2002, and therefore its up to me to prove I don't owe the money because I didn't tell them in 2002 I didn't owe it.

 

Now according to them, because the company I worked ( who have now gone bust ) told them I should pay the business rates, they have decided to just take their word for it. So I can contact the council and tell them that Mickey Mouse is responsible for the business rates for Tescos, and they will send the bills to him. No proof is needed, just someone contacting the council to tell them.

 

Amazingly, its the same with council tax. A property owner can simply write to the council tell them that Mickey Mouse is responsible for paying the council tax, and because Mouse doesn't tell them he isn't the one who is supposed to pay it, then Mickey Mouse gets a liability order, and then has to prove why he's not liable.

 

Utterly bloody stupid..

 

I think I need to get in touch with an MP on this one, because they are refusing point blank to budge and won't tell Rossendales to back off. So I am expecting a bailliff to attend anytime soon. He's gonna get told where to go as well..

[mikeymack2002]

Councils are not supposed to go for a Liability Order after 6 years.. please go and check that out for correct information... Ask the CAB or similar

[renegadeimp]

Just been involved in a very heated argument with someone from Liverpool City council

 

Apparantly according to them, the responsibility is on me to prove I do not owe the money because I would have received a bill in 2002, and therefore its up to me to prove I don't owe the money because I didn't tell them in 2002 I didn't owe it.

 

Now according to them, because the company I worked ( who have now gone bust ) told them I should pay the business rates, they have decided to just take their word for it. So I can contact the council and tell them that Mickey Mouse is responsible for the business rates for Tescos, and they will send the bills to him. No proof is needed, just someone contacting the council to tell them.

 

Amazingly, its the same with council tax. A property owner can simply write to the council tell them that Mickey Mouse is responsible for paying the council tax, and because Mouse doesn't tell them he isn't the one who is supposed to pay it, then Mickey Mouse gets a liability order, and then has to prove why he's not liable.

 

Utterly bloody stupid..

 

I think I need to get in touch with an MP on this one, because they are refusing point blank to budge and won't tell Rossendales to back off. So I am expecting a bailliff to attend anytime soon. He's gonna get told where to go as well..

 

Which council is it? Perhaps they are outsourcing their back office duties.

[brassnecked]

Which council is it? Perhaps they are outsourcing their back office duties.

It's Liverpool City Council

[Bailiff Advice]

Councils are not supposed to go for a Liability Order after 6 years.. please go and check that out for correct information... Ask the CAB or similar

 

The Liability Order in this case MM was obtained long ago (certainly as far back as 2008) so the six year rule will not apply.

[Bailiff Advice]

In October 2002 I was employed as a holding manager for a pub company running a pub in Liverpool.

 

About 10 weeks later, I recieved notification that the pub company had since sold the pub to Enterprise Inns, who asked would I remain at the site to run the establishment until a suitable tenant could be found.

 

In March 2003 following arguments and issues with Enterprise Inns, I left the property, or more to the point, they sought an eviction notice asking me to leave, which I believe was all legal and above board. .

 

 

During this particular period (October 2002 and March 2003) it would seem from my reading of your posts that you were asked to remain as 'caretaker/manager' by ENTERPRISE INNS. If so, then the liability should be with them and they would surely have the relevant documentation etc. Was it Enterprise who were paying you during this period?

[gibbo1969]

During this particular period (October 2002 and March 2003) it would seem from my reading of your posts that you were asked to remain as 'caretaker/manager' by ENTERPRISE INNS. If so, then the liability should be with them and they would surely have the relevant documentation etc. Was it Enterprise who were paying you during this period?

 

Herein lies the same problem.

 

Enterprise Inns have now sold the pub on to someone else about 8 years ago. I asked them for any relevant paperwork, and they say they don't have anything on file either.

 

So there is absolutely no paperwork anywhere, and because the Liability order is in my name, the council want proof from me that I don't owe the money to them. The onus is on me to prove to them I didn't own that business, which is utterly absurd. Surely the onus has to be on them to prove I do.

[DavidP24]

According to the page below the liability order is a rubber stampted list of names, they do not even have to ask you for the money before passing to bailiffs.

 

The debt is not covered by the 6 year statute of limitations

 

So the only hope you have is political pressure as suggested or a judicial review which will cost you more than the debt.

 

[Commercial link removed]

Edited February 20, 2016 by honeybee13
Link removed

[gibbo1969]

Well absolutely stuffed here.

 

The council have written back to me saying that I should have objected to the liability order in December 2012, and therefore they will not consider any removal of the liability order unless i can provide documentary evidence that I was not the business owner.

 

In their words "the onus is not on us to prove anything as we have the liability order, and it is your resposibility to prove we are incorrect"

 

So I am absolutely screwed here as no one can provide any documents for over 13 years ago.

 

The kind souls have given me 4 weeks to provide any evidence I can to support my argument, but other than that they are not budging..

 

If they still refuse to accept I do not owe that money, then I'll pay them at £10 per week and make them wait 12 years to get it all. .

[unclebulgaria67]

Well absolutely stuffed here.

 

The council have written back to me saying that I should have objected to the liability order in December 2012, and therefore they will not consider any removal of the liability order unless i can provide documentary evidence that I was not the business owner.

 

In their words "the onus is not on us to prove anything as we have the liability order, and it is your resposibility to prove we are incorrect"

 

So I am absolutely screwed here as no one can provide any documents for over 13 years ago.

 

The kind souls have given me 4 weeks to provide any evidence I can to support my argument, but other than that they are not budging..

 

If they still refuse to accept I do not owe that money, then I'll pay them at £10 per week and make them wait 12 years to get it all. .

 

I have seen reports that the West Liverpool Citizens Advice bureau have had some successes with some very old council tax demands. But whether they can help with this, you can only ask.

 

Surely if you can look back at any old Bank account statements or info held by your Bank, it might help your case. Banks keep records for at least 12 years, but if they are now held in archives, you might have to ask them to search back longer that they may have on their live records system.

[ploddertom]

Your original post talks about the debt from 2002/3 yet you have the Council saying objection to the Liability Order granted in 2012 should have been objected to at that time. For me this is well over the 6 year limit. Liverpool City Council have a record of digging up old cases and insisting:

a - they have to be paid

b - it is for the debtor to prove they don't owe it

 

In my view they need to prove the debt exists and as it is from so long ago you should also ask them what their write off policy was - this must be from the time the debt occurred and not the present time. I appreciate I may have missed this but do you still live in the same Local Authority area?

[Bailiff Advice]

 

In my view they need to prove the debt exists and as it is from so long ago you should also ask them what their write off policy was - this must be from the time the debt occurred and not the present time. I appreciate I may have missed this but do you still live in the same Local Authority area?

 

The very recent decision (9th November 2015) from the Local Government Ombudsman regarding Liverpool City Council and the very old 'community charge' is really worrying.

 

In this particular case, the 'community charge' is from 1993 and even though Liverpool cannot locate a copy of the Liability Order the view of the Ombudsman is that:

 

"The Council’s records show the money is owed and without any evidence to the contrary I cannot question the validity of these records".

 

http://www.lgo.org.uk/decisions/benefits-and-tax/other/14-019-796