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    • thats the point of a LBL!!…. they DONT need any court approvement to enforce it..   as long as the bill of sale has been correctly registered  there is quite frankly stuff and all you can do to prevent losing your car. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?452164-Log-Book-Loan-Guidance&p=4791345#post4791345 from my notes. [prob same as above! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logbook loan repossessions are not always legal,  . if linked to a CCA agreement or if the BOS has not been registered with the high court. . If BOS registered then yes they can reposses,  but have to show registration and debt details. Registration  A bill of sale can only be enforced if it was properly registered.  Since this is an expensive and difficult process,  it is rare that this actually happens.  However, failure to register the bill of sale renders it void,  and so renders any security on goods void. .  Consequently, before allowing any creditor to gain possession of your goods,  ask to see a registered copy of the bill showing the supreme courts seal. .  You can also call the national debt line, and ask them how to search the registry yourself. .  Also a valid DN must be issued. . If linked to a CCA then can not reposses if on private property without a court order  ( but can if on public road and under a third has only been paid ). . Over a third, they need a court order wherever it is. . check for...[BOS] . Not Registered With The High Court In 7 Days not registered AT ALL!  . Credit Agreement Details Not On The Bill Of Sale You should also check that the name on the registration documents  matches the name of the person who signed the BOS On occasions these cars get sold on several times . how to check: . email:QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk.[no spaces] . ring:020 7947 7772  . write: QB Enforcement Section,  Room E15-E17,  Royal Courts of Justice,  Strand, London, WC2A ... . ideally you need the BOS number . however they can search by the Reg Number . ...............  also see: http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-types/consumer-credit/consumer-credit-research/logbook-loans ..... Do you have a problem with a Logbook Loan?  With Citizens advice estimating that over 60,000 of these loans were taken out in 2014 alone  an increasing number a causing severe difficulty and distress for borrowers. .  In this guide we explain what a logbook loan is, and how they work.   What you can do if you have a repayment problem,  and what you can do if you have unknowingly bought a car with a logbook loan attached. .  Three golden rules for Logbbok Loans .  1)No matter how desperate you are to purchase a car, or raise cash,  NEVER consider this type of Finance  These loans are designed purely for the benefit of the lenders.  With APRs of 400+%, little consumer protection, and aggressive debt collectionicon practices  they should be avoided at all costs. .  2)When purchasing a used car from whatever source,private or trade,  ALWAYS do a FULL GENUINE HPI CHECK costing around £20,  these come with a guarantee against any form of existing finance, including lbl's .  3)If you have any problem with a Logbook Loan,  your first step is ALWAYS to check that the Bill Of Sale has been registered  with the High Court. You can do this here- .  to check if registered .  Contact Details .  QB Enforcement Section  Room E15-17  Royal Courts of Justice  Strand  London  WC2A 2LL  DX 44450 Strand .  Telephone: 020 7947 7772  Fax: 0870 324 0024  Email: QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk .  You may read on the internet that your BOSicon will be void if witnessed by your lbl lender .  Since the OFT( as was) lost the attestation case on appeal by 2 to1 this is NOT the case .  full details here http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean .  Logbook loans are a form of credit dating back to the Victorian era,  derived from the 1878/1882 Bills Of Sale Acts, with terms and conditions to match in many cases. .  Problems are many fold from extortionate charges by lenders for calling a customer,  to repossessions where owners have been left at the side of a busy road,  unable to get to work, and even sexual harassment via debt collection. .  Poor practices abound, unsurprising when there is no incentive for lenders  to ensure their customers understand the terms or can afford the repayments.  In fact the very nature of this form of finance could be seen to encourage bad behaviour  – why carry out affordability checks if a single missed payments means you get to keep   the money and takeaway the car? . .  How does it work? .  When you take out a logbook loan you will be asked to hand over your vehicle’s logbook  or vehicle registration document, which proves you are the registered keeper of the vehicle. .  You’ll also have to sign a credit agreement and a form called a ‘bill of sale’.  This means the lender now owns your vehicle on a temporary basis  but you are still able to use it so long as you meet all loan repayments.  . These documents are recognised by law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland  but are not used in Scotland. .  The law only recognises a bill of sale if the lender registers it with the High Court.  If it’s not registered, the lender must get a court’s approval to repossess your vehicle.  . You should check if the bill of sale is registered. .  What you should do if you have a repayment problem .  1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above .  2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974 .  allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment) .  You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the dn .  look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan-- https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx .  What you can do if you have purchased a car with an existing logbook loan .  If you receive a letter threatening to repossess the car or an enforcement officer  turns up at your home to take it, you may not be able to stop them.  . •ask to see proof of their identity and their authorisation to take the car •ask to see the bill of sale document – they have to show you this if you ask for it •if you feel threatened by how an enforcement officer is behaving, call the polic •ask for written confirmation of what has been taken •get the contact details for the logbook loan company. . If the lender has taken your car, you can try to get it back  and reclaim your money from the seller.  However, this can be a costly and time-consuming process and is not guaranteed to succeed. .  If you want to get the car back, you could pay off the outstanding loan  and then take the person who sold you the car to court, to try to get your money back.  .  If you just want to get your money back, you can take the person who sold you the car to court.   Always get independent advice before you decide to take someone to court. .  Some lenders are members of the consumer credit Trade Association (CCTA),  which has a code of practice covering logbook loans.  The code of practice says the lender must register the logbook loan on a register,  so it will show up when you carry out a history check on the car.  It also says they must obey certain rules when they repossess a car. .  If you are unhappy with the way a logbook loan lender or its enforcement officers have behaved,  find out whether they are a member. If so, you can complain directly to the CCTA. However this code is regularly ignored . http://www.ccta.co.uk/content/our-code.aspx .  Finally both the Financial Conduct Authority and the Law Commission are investigating  Logbook Lending  and the associated legislation,  full details here-- . http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-typ.../logbook-loans . http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...ls-of-sale.htm . for anyones info, you must act immediately on receipt of a default notice . What you should do if you have a repayment problem .  1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above .  2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974  allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment) .  You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the default notice look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan-- . https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx Bills of Sale Act does not apply in Scotland, just to reassure you from the Money Advice Service *Taking out a logbook loan in Scotland*   In Scotland, ‘bills of sale’ cannot be used as security and are not legally binding.   Lenders in Scotland are therefore likely to be operating under different credit arrangements.   If the logbook loan is a ‘hire-purchase agreement’ or a ‘conditional  sale’, your consumer rights and protection under the Consumer Credit Act  1974 will apply. . worth a read http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?472038-ACF-THe-funding-Corp-illegal-repo-now-DCA-Chasing-loan&p=4972172#post4972172 . dx  
    • Can someone please help. I received a money claim and the trial is coming very soon. The claimants are the landlord, sent out a late payment warning letter in 2016, no warning letter has been received since.  I received a money claim against me in December 2018 without a letter before action.  The claimant is claiming breach of contract and they have submitted an agreement with their claim form that I think is invalid because it was created in 2015. We have a newer agreement that was signed in 2016 but the claimants have always denied this.  Today on their witness statement, they have attached this agreement date 2016. Would this make the 1st agreement invalid and would this be enough to get the claim thrown out of court? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! 
    • Oh dear - Report it as stolen - You better give it to them or else... However if you can tell - I am being sarcastic...    So - Affordability is a prime concern but with LBL - Because they are secured - It is very hard to do a IRR Lending complaint unless they seriously overvalued the car.  What are the amounts they are talking to you about? (Figures)   I dont think there is much they can do apart from enforce through court proceedings for repossession. Thats the only way I think but dont quote me on that...  If there treatment of you has been detrimental and caused sever mental health issues then you can complain to the FOS and also you will be afforded time to come up with a repayment plan.    Where is the Vehicle stored at the moment?
    • I've received a cheque from CS for the loan PPI - £2,238.72. Banked and will give a CAG donation once it clears. Thanks guys.    Also received a reply to the Credit Card PPI that I had queried. 8 weeks since my letter and they have written that due to the high volume of complaints it's taking longer than expected to respond. They expect another 8 weeks to respond of close the complaint. 
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timid80

Natwest debt / SAR / CCA advise

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First post, so hoping I've followed all the recommendations.

 

Would appreciate some advice following a recent SAR request I sent to NatWest.

 

Used the template from the CAG library to send a SAR to NatWest and they've called today to ask exactly what I was looking for.

 

Not very good at being forceful on the phone, so rather than saying "everything I asked for in writing", I explained I needed transactions and credit agreements.

 

They are supposed to send me a list of transactions for all of my accounts that I will then comb through for any reclaimable charges and supply me details of the department that may be able to locate my agreements. They are also sending back the £10 fee.

 

I have the following defaulted from Natwest (all have fallen off my credit report in the last 2 years). Fell into problems in 2009 and have been making token payements on and off since:

  • a non SB unsecured loan (post April 2007) - £16k outstanding
  • Overdraft - £304 outstanding
  • Credit Card (pre April 2007) - £3k outstanding

 

Just wondering if I should have demanded more or if transactions and an attempt to find my agreements is a good start. Have just started to tidy up the mess from numerous debts. Natwest is the most complicated, largest amount I owe and surprisingly haven't chased, just send statements. They have used DCA in the past but seem to still own the debts

 

Can anyone advise.

 

Thanks

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RBS Group havent been to debt sale in a while which is probably why they "Own" and not "Sell" the accounts. That may change in the future.

Anyway back to point. This is standard process from RBSgroup and IMHO I think its a good stance to take.

 

If they are sending you £10 and you need anything else in future, then just resend for another SAR Request.

 

Oh and by the way, Welcome to CAG Timid80, good to have you here.

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Sounds good, thanks for the info. Have been reading forum for months, chuffed I haven't messed the process up yet.

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Sounds good, thanks for the info. Have been reading forum for months, chuffed I haven't messed the process up yet.

 

Well youve done well so far. If Natwest forget something out of what you've requested (After being revised) then you can get back onto them. But generally Speaking RBSgroup are normally pretty good with this stuff.

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Have received a response to a CCA I sent to Natwest (attached), would appreciate some advise as to how to proceed.

 

Details of debt

Original Creditor: Natwest

Current Creditor: Natwest

Date Opened: 15th June 2008

Default date: Sept 2009

Opening balance: £18k (£28k according to old credit report from 2014?)

Current balance: £15k

Last payment: March 2015

DCA: Robinson Way, but no recent letters received.

 

QUESTION - Response from Natwest states that the loan agreement will have been destroyed. As the debt is post 2007, I'm not sure if this means it is enforceable or not?

 

They have also stated that I had PPI on the loan.

 

QUESTION - Not expecting to receive any cash-back from this one but wondering if anyone would recommend claiming back the PPI to reduce the balance of the outstanding amount?

 

Thanks for reading

Natwest CCA response (redacted).pdf

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Not sold, most recent statement I have is on Natwest headed paper (addressed from their CMS Recoveries Branch), but my last arrangement to pay was via Robinson Way, so think RW were only providing collection services.

So even though I opened the account after 2007, no agreement, no enforcement - am I getting that right? Would claiming for PPI then make it enforceable?

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Natwest don't know their left from right!

 

They say that they destroy these docs six years AFTER the final payment/account closed, which is correct, but as the account was closed on the 15th June last year, then they have openly admitted falling foul of the money laundering regs, however I wouldn't be telling them their obvious mistake! Let them dig their own grave.

 

I would certainly be reclaiming that PPI, 5k for their trouble!


Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Natwest don't know their left from right!

 

They say that they destroy these docs six years AFTER the final payment/account closed, which is correct, but as the account was closed on the 15th June last year, then they have openly admitted falling foul of the money laundering regs, however I wouldn't be telling them their obvious mistake! Let them dig their own grave.

 

I would certainly be reclaiming that PPI, 5k for their trouble!

 

My thoughts exactly. Not planning to make them aware they can't read a calendar but will take a look at the PPI, if the account's closed guessing they'd struggle to keep anything that's due back!

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If they cant find the agreement, they cant enforce in court :)

This is a good thing. Has the balance been sold to Robinson Way on a permanent basis?

 

why can't they enforce?


An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Because without it, how are they going to convince a judge?


Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Because without it, how are they going to convince a judge?

 

Loan account statements proving the borrower received the funds etc.


An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Loan account statements proving the borrower received the funds etc.

 

My understanding is that it isn't whether they can prove the funds were received. The enforceability of the debt relates to the terms of the agreement and the relevant law at the time.

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Loan account statements proving the borrower received the funds etc.

 

Still need the original agreement.


Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Still need the original agreement.

 

Can you post the section of CPR or relevant case law and/or statute that confirms a prerequisite for enforcement is sight of the original.


An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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I have unapproved certain posts here as it doesnt help the OP - However for reference - This may help

 

 

Court Decides Credit Card Debt Was Unfair

 

A Manchester man has had a £13,000 credit card debt wiped out thanks to a leading North West law firm.

 

Stephensons Solicitors LLP has just won a County Court case for a client who found himself in debt after taking out a credit card.

 

Mr Traynor initially took out the credit card when he was approached in Sainsburys supermarket seven years ago. He completed and signed an application form in store and received his card a few days later through the post.

 

In late 2005, his business was not doing well and he began to struggle with the repayments. His credit limit had been continually increased without him requesting it and with interest and late payment fees mounting up, his debt had risen to more than £10,000 by April 2006.

 

Mr Traynor said: “After failing to make my minimum monthly payments I was regularly contacted by my credit card provider. I tried to explain that hopefully I would be able to make repayments if my income increased. In September 2006, I started making nominal repayments of £1 per month”.

 

However, Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited later acquired the debt and in February 2008 they issued a County Court claim to recover the outstanding amount – which by now had reached £13,223.67.

 

Sarah Hood, a consumer solicitor at North West law firm Stephensons Solicitors LLP, successfully defended the client against the claim after it was discovered that he not been supplied with what are known as ‘prescribed terms’ when he first took out the card.

 

Before the trial, Phoenix produced one further document which contained the prescribed terms, but it was not signed by Mr Traynor and was clearly not provided to him back in 2002. The Court agreed the agreement was unenforceable and ordered Phoenix to pay his legal costs.

 

Sarah Hood said: “Often credit card companies are unable to produce a credit card agreement or other document signed by the debtor containing the prescribed terms, such as a credit limit or a sentence indicating that the credit card company will decide this limit from time to time.

 

“Most requests for a copy of the agreement result in the disclosure of a signed application form that does not comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

“If you entered into a credit card agreement before April 6th 2007 and your credit card company cannot produce a signed document containing the prescribed terms, then there is an argument that they cannot enforce the agreement.”

 

Each case has to be considered on its own merits but this case illustrates that defending a county court claim in relation to a credit card debt can have a positive outcome.

 

Liam Waine, partner and head of the consumer contract department at Stephensons added: “Many people may consider this result to be unfair against the credit card company but the rules governing the content of credit agreements are inflexible and designed to protect the consumer. It’s the responsibility of the creditor to ensure they comply. The onus is on them to provide an enforceable document if they are hoping to obtain a county court judgment against a consumer who has failed to meet the repayments.”

 

Mr Traynor said: “I am extremely grateful to Stephensons for helping me win this case and getting the credit agreement made unenforceable in a court of law. It is a great weight off my shoulders.”

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