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G4C389

JCP advisor this morning was difficult....

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I started claiming UC in December and was sanctioned for 91 days and today there is 51 days left to run on it, this morning I went to an appointment with an advisor and she immediately was very grouchy picking up my blue card and shouting 'who is this' I responded and she was snotty. Anyway she called me over and said 'Yorker job search isn't really up to scratch' I responded politely 'I know,sorry it's because I have been sanctioned it's minimises my job search, Iv had interviews Iv been I haven't been able to go to because I havnt hardly any money to support it' she never said anything while I stood there like a **** waiting for a response, then she just said 'sit down', she never said another word and just give me this envelope with 2 sheets and said 'put you're job search on there and send it off to them ok, and just plonked it down on the desk when I had my hand out to get it. The point is I'm already sanctioned tell pretty much April so will this affect it if I don't send the form off?

 

Edit: I lost the sheets on the way home but still have envelope, I called the UC number and the advised on the phone agreed with me saying Iv been sanctioned anyway but wasn't sure it will extend it, So she put a Note on the system saying Iv lost the sheets

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well that's just bs it be nice if u cud tell her were to get off

 

do you feel u were illegally sanctioned rem the 35 hr thing is NOT a requirement only an expectation

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if she would have acted the same way to me, i would probably be in prison now due to my actions.

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Why do you have to send your jobsearch log off somewhere? I just show mine when i see my advisor. If somebody in a customer facing role spoke like that to me then they would be getting a piece of my mind.

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You say that you started claiming UC in December and that you were sanctioned for 91 days almost immediately. You explained in another thread the reason for the sanction, sounds like you are resigned to that and concluded that it would be futile to appeal.

 

The issue now appears to be that you are being harassed about the quantity or quality of your job searching activity. It does not help that you have a targer, someone who is loud, obnoxious and confrontational, for an adviser. However this opinion, and to say that she was 'grouchy' and 'snotty' are subjective opinions. If you intend to make a formal complaint about her behaviour, you need to be more specific with precise factual examples. Do you record your interviews? If not, it may be advisable to do so.

 

The law says that what you are required to do as far as job seeking activity is concerned has to be reasonable in your circumstances.

 

Your circumstances will have changed since you 'agreed' a Claimant Commitment back in December. To avoid further sanctions it may be necessary to review that CC bearing in mind your current circumstances, viz; having no income, no savings, and dependant on loans from friends to finance the basics for survival, since the initial CC was drawn up.

 

Citizen's Advice recommend you do this and suggests how to go about it:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/sanctions/if-youve-been-sanctioned/

 

It would be unreasonable to expect anyone with no income and no money to engage in activity that requires expenditure of money.

 

You have not said who exactly you were meant to send your 'two sheets' to.

 

Retaining hard copies of any written evidence of job seeking activity that includes personal data is illegal unless they can show that it is for use in evidence in on-going enquiries. Were you informed of any on-going enquiries that they have got on-going?

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So she was being horrible? I admit I threw the papers on the floor when I got outside out of annoyance.....was it personal?

 

Yea, was she being like this in a personal way?

 

if she would have acted the same way to me, i would probably be in prison now due to my actions.

 

Was it personal? Or just the way she is?

Edited by citizenB

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Why do you have to send your jobsearch log off somewhere? I just show mine when i see my advisor. If somebody in a customer facing role spoke like that to me then they would be getting a piece of my mind.

 

I record my job searches and applications on the UC jobmatch website, I was worried this advisor yesterday took an instant dislike to me like was it personal? I admit the sheets she give me I threw on the floor on the door way, I was raising my voice back at her when she said she couldn't hear me

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You say that you started claiming UC in December and that you were sanctioned for 91 days almost immediately. You explained in another thread the reason for the sanction, sounds like you are resigned to that and concluded that it would be futile to appeal.

 

The issue now appears to be that you are being harassed about the quantity or quality of your job searching activity. It does not help that you have a targer, someone who is loud, obnoxious and confrontational, for an adviser. However this opinion, and to say that she was 'grouchy' and 'snotty' are subjective opinions. If you intend to make a formal complaint about her behaviour, you need to be more specific with precise factual examples. Do you record your interviews? If not, it may be advisable to do so.

 

The law says that what you are required to do as far as job seeking activity is concerned has to be reasonable in your circumstances.

 

Your circumstances will have changed since you 'agreed' a Claimant Commitment back in December. To avoid further sanctions it may be necessary to review that CC bearing in mind your current circumstances, viz; having no income, no savings, and dependant on loans from friends to finance the basics for survival, since the initial CC was drawn up.

 

Citizen's Advice recommend you do this and suggests how to go about it:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/sanctions/if-youve-been-sanctioned/

 

It would be unreasonable to expect anyone with no income and no money to engage in activity that requires expenditure of money.

 

You have not said who exactly you were meant to send your 'two sheets' to.

 

Retaining hard copies of any written evidence of job seeking activity that includes personal data is illegal unless they can show that it is for use in evidence in on-going enquiries. Were you informed of any on-going enquiries that they have got on-going?

 

 

I record my applications on the universal jobmatch website, imo Iv done enough, want to complain but where will it get me? Don't know if she was being like this to me personally or just because it was Monday morning and the weekend didn't go well.

Edited by honeybee13
Vulagarity removed.

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Is it worth calling the job centre I attended and complain?

 

well that's just bs it be nice if u cud tell her were to get off

 

do you feel u were illegally sanctioned rem the 35 hr thing is NOT a requirement only an expectation

 

 

I was sanctioned for being sacked due to misconduct

Edited by citizenB

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Advisers are instructed on methods to use to wind claimants up, when they succeed in doing what they set out to do, they win. This then excuses them from doing what they are obliged and paid to do, which is to help, advise and coach the claimant. Temper tantrums and losing the plot can very easily become the direct consequences of being treated with contempt and abuse. However you should make a concerted effort to remain calm and collected.

 

If you intend to lodge a formal complaint about the way your adviser behaves I would strongly recommend that you do it by letter, addressed and handed in or posted to named Jobcentre manager. Using phones or emails encourages them to harass and harangue you remorselessly, and, of course they can deny, or 'lose' records of phone calls.

 

I have included here a draft of the sort of letter that would answer to your current requirements. Its object is twofold.

 

1. It should alert them to your determination not stand for disrespect, shoddy service and abuse.

 

2. It should encourage them to review your Claimant Commitment with a view to making it more reasonable and suited to your circumstances.

 

Obviously the bits of the letter that I have signified in red are for you to fill in, tweak, alter as you see fit.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------[Your Address]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------[Date]

[Name]

Jobcentre Manager

 

[Address]

 

Reference: Formal notification that I, [Name, NI Number] intend to make use of a personal audio recording device at any/all future DWP/JCP appointments/interviews.

 

Please be advised that as of [Date] which is the date of my next JCP appointment, I intend to record all signing-on appointments/interviews/telephone calls with DWP/Jobcentre Plus staff. I include among those staff any third party contracted staff who are employed to administer welfare/benefits policies or programmes on behalf of, or under the overall authority of, DWP/JCP.

 

This will be done via a digital audio recording device which will not be visible to the interviewer, adviser, coach, or to anyone else for that matter. Any information thus recorded will only be used as the law permits and that includes any legal right to share such information as I record on social media under certain circumstances and in the prescribed manner. I also reserve the right to use any information thus recorded as evidence in any actions at court/tribunal hearings in which I might find myself compelled to defend such an action.

 

I appreciate that the recording of any interview conducted in open plan areas or offices where claimants are herded like sheep with only the width of a desk between themselves and other claimants may inadvertently 'pick up' snippets of other claimant/adviser conversation/discussions. Since you have previously given no regard, consideration or even thought to my privacy, or who is listening to what I say or am told, as you are obliged by law so to do, it would be boldness verging on brass faced cheek on your part to pray in aid and place the responsibility for, and respect of other claimants' privacy on me now. You, not I, have the option, indeed the obligation to provide a secure location that will allow me to take advantage of my legal rights without infringing on the legal rights of others. You always have had.

 

Incidents of misrepresentation of legal requirements, ignorance of legal requirements, failure to apply prescribed procedures, ignoring such prescribed procedures altogether, maladministration, lying, harassment, intimidation, abuse, threats, entrapment, blackmail and even fraud are being reported by benefit claimants on social media, welfare and benefit advise websites and forums and in the press at an alarmingly escalating rate.

 

There are even incidents being reported of DWP/JCP staff themselves being put in fear of disciplinary action or losing their jobs unless they comply with illegal instructions/directives from superiors. Disgusted with what is going on, and being put under duress to apply such tactics as I have listed above, they are left with no alternative but to blow the whistle on what can only be described as widespread institutionalised corruption.

 

Having become aware that such tactics/excesses are being practiced, and having personally suffered from same, I believe it would be negligent of me not to take some measures to protect myself against the obvious results that such excesses/tactics are designed and intended to have on my life and well-being.

 

I have tried reasoned discussion to impress the legal and regulatory processes and requirements on my adviser to no avail. I continue to be ignored and even threatened with more severe consequences and reprisals at the mere suggestion of anything short of unquestioning compliance and submission.

 

The reason that I feel obliged to resort to this extreme measure is the unhelpful and abusive attitude taken by my adviser and her failure to address the issues raised by my current circumstances:

 

[The law spells out what I am required to do as far as job seeking activity is concerned it has to be reasonable in my circumstances.

 

My circumstances have changed since my Claimant Commitment was drawn up back in December. The sanction applied is biting and I am finding it impossible, totally unaffordable, to comply with the CC in its entirety. To avoid the risk of further sanctions I suggested that it may be necessary to review that CC bearing in mind that my current circumstances, viz; having no income, no savings, and dependant on loans from friends to finance the basics for survival, since the initial CC was drawn up.

 

Rather than make any attempt to help and advise me on a reasonable solution to my predicament I find my adviser [Name] not only being unhelpful, unreasonable and dismissive of my circumstances but she becomes increasingly disrespectful, insulting and abusive. This is compounded by her exerting pressure on me to hand over hard copies of my job seeking activities, which will necessarily include personal details, thereby foregoing my rights under the Data Protection Act.]

 

For my records, and to avoid any doubt or dispute at some time in the future regarding the action that I am obliged to take, I would be grateful if you would confirm receipt of this declaration of my intention in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[Your name]

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Have you applied for Recoverable Hardship following your sanction?

If you haven't then contact the service centre to book this appointment, you will have to demonstrate your jobseeking has met all steps on your Claimant Commitment during the 7 days prior to the application or it will be turned down.

 

For the record yes I work in a JCP office yes I work on both the JSA and the UC sides of the business but I have never been instructed on how to wind people up. I like to think I treat everyone the way I like to be treated. All other work coaches I work with also demonstrate this but yes I have witnessed in other offices lousy customer service, please don't tar us all with the same brush, this is one reason I hardly post any more.

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Be very careful G4C89 following advice from here.

I'm sure people mean well, but they're ultimately all keyboard warriors shouting a good game about what you "should" do. But when you're actually in the job centre looking behind you for support in the real world?

Nope!

If you get sanctioned they will be nowhere to be seen, but they'll feel good for telling you what you should/would/could do.

Take any advice you get here with a pinch of salt.

They're all nutters on ESA anyway.

If you are simply here to flame the forum and to disrupt people because you feel that you have suffered because you have decided to follow some advice which may not have turned out to be the best for you, then I will have to place your moderation.

 

Please go back to your original thread where I have tried to ask you one or two questions about what has happened.


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Have you applied for Recoverable Hardship following your sanction?

If you haven't then contact the service centre to book this appointment, you will have to demonstrate your jobseeking has met all steps on your Claimant Commitment during the 7 days prior to the application or it will be turned down.

 

For the record yes I work in a JCP office yes I work on both the JSA and the UC sides of the business but I have never been instructed on how to wind people up. I like to think I treat everyone the way I like to be treated. All other work coaches I work with also demonstrate this but yes I have witnessed in other offices lousy customer service, please don't tar us all with the same brush, this is one reason I hardly post any more.

 

Yes I got a hardship, and Iv never met someone like this at a job centre before, even before I got my last job 4 years ago they were all nice people (suppose there is a first time for everything) even the WP back in the day were like she was yesterday

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How do I open original post up? And I asked for a reconsider of the the sanction and was knocked back, I was sacked for gross misconduct (summary dismissal) and Iv been told by the CAB it was the right decision in all fairness

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To look up previous posts:

 

 

1. Click on your moniker - G4C389 - In the top corner of your post. This will take you to your profile page

 

 

2. Click on "Find all posts" This will take you to a list of all your posts

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[...]please don't tar us all with the same brush, this is one reason I hardly post any more.

 

Your absence is genuinely missed by many, but your posts are always helpful and valued when you do drop in.

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PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

Quote
No... you can't eat my brain just yet. I need it a little while longer.

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How do I open original post up? And I asked for a reconsider of the the sanction and was knocked back, I was sacked for gross misconduct (summary dismissal) and Iv been told by the CAB it was the right decision in all fairness

To look up previous posts:

 

1. Click on your moniker in the top corner of your post. This will take you to your profile page

 

2. Click on "Find all posts". This will take you to the list of all your posts.

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Yeah, per what Flumps said - DWP staff are not trained on how to wind up claimants. Or maybe I was off on holiday that day.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING. EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

The idea that all politicians lie is music to the ears of the most egregious liars.

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Yeah, per what Flumps said - DWP staff are not trained on how to wind up claimants. Or maybe I was off on holiday that day.

And me... I also pride myself on treating as others as I would like to be treated. As do the vast majority of my colleagues.

I have to tell people things they don't want to hear virtually daily. I will always treat people with respect.

 

Like others it's the tarring us all with the same brush that leaves me tempted to stop posting.

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Please do not ask me for advice via PM as I will not reply.

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Well G4C389, I am slightly taken aback by the reaction to my post #10. JCP staff, ex-JCP staff and a nutter, whose opinions of the unemployed and disabled must put him in contention for a senior position within DWP, all going into overdrive. One has to ask why they don't seem to be so ready to jump in with advise for claimants with genuine concerns who find themselves in states of desperation verging on suicidal. One might also ask where they all were with advice and guidance on the initial sanction when you asked for it, took a week to get a response on that occasion. Fast enough, mind you, for JCP.

 

Anyway it's good to know that they have tender feelings after all, even though those feelings are for each other.

 

Just imagine the effect the letter, if you choose to send it, will have on the recipient. Hope s/he has a strong constitution. This is only the opening salvo, wait till s/he responds and we commence phase two.

 

Apologies to anyone offended by my comment about advisers. Needless to say I withdraw it unreservedly where it does not apply.

 

It would be difficult to convince me that advisers don't undergo some sort of training on how to deal with 'awkward' claimants who do not conform or submit without a whimper. One has only to read the Guidance to Advisers documents and how similar claimant experiences are from Land's End to John O' Groats to realise that the idea of an agenda and the non-existent 'targets' are not just nasty rumours. I would concede that some advisers are more conscientious in their application of such tactics than others.

 

I am sorry to hear that such comments prevent you Flumps from sharing your knowledge and experience with members who might benefit from it, and that it took this one remark rather than the numerous genuine grievances, enquiries and heart-rending pleas to bring you out of 'retirement'. Not sure if your comments are intended to make me feel that I'm the guilty one, to shut me up, or to have me barred altogether, Anyone familiar with Jobcentres will recognise those sorts of tactics, used in some jobcentres, by some advisers.

 

I am also grateful to you for acknowledging that "..... yes I have witnessed in other offices lousy customer service,...." That is what I meant too, all the lousy customer service from all those other offices, not yours.

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I'm sorry that those of us who give up our time and knowledge for free are not meeting your exacting standards of quality and promptness. Imagine, if you will, going to a forum where every second post contained rants about the evils of Lapsed Workaholics, and how they are all lazy, malicious and corrupt. Consider the possibility that, when faced with this onslaught, you might well just say "**** this!" and spend your time doing something else instead.

 

The DWP staff who advise here are of great value to CAG.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING. EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

The idea that all politicians lie is music to the ears of the most egregious liars.

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Exactly that^^^

 

If a member of DWP staff made a sweeping generalisation about people on benefits there would, rightfully, be uproar.

 

Yes, there is training on handling difficult situations - concentrating on diffusing the situation.

 

Fortunately, very little of my self esteem is invested in LW's opinion of me.

 

End of.


Please do not ask me for advice via PM as I will not reply.

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I haven't been in retirement, far too many years left in me yet! I have been popping on to read and lurk most weeks but I am human and have a lot of my own personal issues, so haven't been as active online as I once was with working full time and caring for a young family. Your comment is by no means an isolated one but sometimes it is the comment that sparks a reply, I have no intention of making you feel guilty about your opinions and have no interest in barring you or shutting you up. If I can put up with verbal and physical abuse/assault at work then I can certainly handle a bit of online banter :-)

 

Lousy customer service can be experienced in any area of life it is not wholly excluded to DWP, but just because I experience something not as good as I would expect I don't automatically think that everyone is the same and give everyone an individual chance.

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Well said, flumps, it's good to see you here. :)

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I thought that the subject might have been dropped after Antone came as near as he dare to imply that only DWP staff give up their time and knowledge to help members and are of value on CAG, while the time, knowledge and experiences of the rest of us mere mortals would be better employed elsewhere, and Shoelover, with typical Jobcentre flunky contempt and arrogance dismissed all further discussion by declaring "End of..."

 

I apologised and withdrew the comment I made about advisers on the grounds that I did not make it clear enough that I was speaking generally and not targeting all advisers individually. What more do you's want?

 

For the edification and further enlightenment of anyone interested or sympathetic with the view expressed, I would direct them to the following links. I was surprised that JCP staff and ex-staff were unaware of their department's approach to implementing policy.

 

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/the-government-plan-to-nudge-sick-and-disabled-people-into-work/

 

http://www.learningandwork.org.uk/sites/niace_en/files/publications/CESI_employing_BELIEF.pdf?redirectedfrom=cesi

 

It is ironic, if not regrettable, that on Holocaust Memorial Day, of all days, we are reminded that an ideology similar to that which spawned 'Arbeit macht frei' appears to still have a place in modern Britain.

 

Anyway you're young, with a young family and a job, I'm sure you have lots to do. When I was young, with a young family, a job and lots to do, it never even occured to me to enquire whether or not government went after the unemployed and disabled in the way they do now. But when they came after me it was the unemployed and the disabled who were foremost in offering a helping hand.

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