Welsh Water claim form received £2132.70***On Appeal Judgment Struck Out***

[unclebulgaria67]

I wonder whether you could ask for their skeleton argument to be struck out, on the basis of non compliance with the Judges directions on the date it was to be provided. Unless there is an exceptional reason for the delay.

 

Are there any rules you can mention that might help ?

 

If the Judge allows the late submission, then you can set out your response. But i wonder whether your response should be more concise, so your points are much clearer to understand.

[stuckinarut11]

The reason for the delay is due to the short notice provided and reliance on the chambers to draft the argument.

 

Take note the skeleton argument he's been drafted by a barrister chambers no longer the solicitor.

 

My final argument is much more structured however includes addresses and names hence the above only being posted here

[stuckinarut11]

Just been served with a statement of costs

 

Hefty

[unclebulgaria67]

If you read threads on CAG you might have seen numerous water related threads where these companies are looking to put fear into people that not paying water bills comes with very expensive consequences. Many go straight to high court enforcement after a CCJ, if the debt is enough.

 

Did they really need a barrister for such a skeleton argument ? Of course it is a choice they can make.

[AndyOrch]

You cant strike out a Skeleton Argument...its merely to support their defence UB. You can submit your own.

 

Andy

[unclebulgaria67]

Ah, i was thinking as it was asked for in court directions by a certain date, that if there was anything different stated, that it might not be accepted, as the appellant did not have the appropriate time to consider a response.

 

But yes commonsense suggests it is just an argument document setting out what they would state in a hearing.

 

Good luck to the OP, but i am not sure i would have appealed, given that years seemed to have gone by without the water company being contacted about unoccupancy. I can't see you can rely on a meter reader reporting the house was empty or a DCA reporting back anything the OP might have told them.

[stuckinarut11]

I appreciate your feedback. Further to your points I have 3 tenancy agreements from the period in question from the local authority.

 

Each and every time the local authority advised the water provider of my move.

 

Hands up back in 2008 I failed to inform the water undertaker directly however had they been provided active they would have identified the change of occupation sooner.

 

It will all come down the the judge tomorrow and I may just cry myself to sleep tomorrow.

 

On the other hand this could be a landmark ruling and the longest duration you can get billed by a water company is 6 months, similar consists with electric and gas suppliers with back billing laws.

 

The water company accept I was not advised the address the evidence supports this so is it really justified to slam me with the charges.

[unclebulgaria67]

"The water company accept I was not advised the address the evidence supports this so is it really justified to slam me with the charges"

 

Don't understand this. You were not advised of an address ? What was this in regard to ?

 

If the council were in contact with WW about the tenancy changes, did WW ever write to the council about you needing to contact them ?

 

Do you have proof of the council letters to WW and copies of any correspondence between council and WW ?

[stuckinarut11]

Residing at the address that should have been.

 

Local authority emails do form part of my disclosure

 

Isit normal to pay for a solictor and barrister for costs awards

 

Can anyone assist in drafting me a litigant in person cost template

[stuckinarut11]

Date Costs Amount Total

07-Sep hearing attendance 1 @ £18 £18

21-Nov hearing attendance 1 @ £18 £18

15-Dec hearing attendance 3 @ £18 £54

07-Sep loss of earnings 7.5 @ £9 £67.50

21-Nov loss of earnings 7.5 @ £9 £67.50

15-Dec loss of earnings 7.5 @ £9 £67.50

Jun-16 Appeal Submission Preperation 10 @ £18 £180

Dec-16 Appeal Hearing Preperation & Admin 5 @ £18 £90

Jun-16 Appeal cost £95 £95

Nov-16 Transcription £60 £60

Jun16- Dec 16 Ink, Stationary and paper £33

Total £750.00

[unclebulgaria67]

Residing at the address that should have been.

 

Local authority emails do form part of my disclosure

 

Isit normal to pay for a solictor and barrister for costs awards

 

Can anyone assist in drafting me a litigant in person cost template

 

Don't know about template. You could do similar format to what they provided.

 

In regard to local authority emails and the background regarding why you had left the property concerned, i think you really need to explain to the Judge your situation at the time. That indirectly WW would have been aware via local authority, Veolia and their debt collection agents about unoccupancy periods. That WW are wanting to charge for periods that you were not occupying the property and they would have been aware of it.

 

A clearer explanation might overcome WW position just looking a your liability under the water act and your responsibilites about informing them of vacating the property, how you inform them etc.

[stuckinarut11]

The judge has confirmed the property was empty has is Ted several other addresses based on council documents.

 

He also expressed sympathy for my situation.

 

Point 10 is another main aspect of the appeal.

[honeybee13]

Witsend, it would help if you could post the documents up as pdf's please, that way we can enlarge them.

 

dx's upload guide may help, you can click on the word upload in my post.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

The point of the appeal is surely to correct anything the Judge got wrong and provide any new information not taken into account.

 

You seem to be labouring on the point that the Judge understood the difficulties you had at the time. He is just trying to show understanding. His main point, is that the account was in your name and you personally did not inform WW, when you vacated the property.

 

If you want to stand a chance with the appeal, it think the communications between the local authority and WW are important. I think what WW did with the information from Veolia is also important. I think any information about billing issues should have been fed back to WW by Fredricksons. What information did WW have or could have aquired by making enquiries, to ensure that you were only billed for periods you occupied the property.

[stuckinarut11]

This is totally agreed and has formed part of it there are so many questions which could have avoided this matter escalating? What responsibility are the water provider taking for not acting proactively in the six years.

 

Aswell as the above the judge was led as per point 10 in the transcription he was remainded.

 

I also will stress there is no case history in section 144 3 & 4 so therefore any suggestions are purely a matter of opinion.

 

I am confident as can be, there are to many unanswered questions I just hope I compose myself calmly and state the facts and not feel intimidated against a paralegal and barrister why do I have to pay both if I lose?

 

This time tomorrow we should know the outcome.

[stuckinarut11]

Well I never thought I'd be typing this

 

Judgment struck out.

 

Judge advised if they wish to recover certain charges then a new claim will need to be heard.

 

Will update later just got out

[stuckinarut11]

As for costs. Judge made it clear it's the small claims track so parties bare their own costs

[unclebulgaria67]

Well I never thought I'd be typing this

 

Judgment struck out.

 

Judge advised if they wish to recover certain charges then a new claim will need to be heard.

 

Will update later just got out

 

To be honest, i never thought i would be reading this.

 

Congratulations on your success.

 

I would hope after this, that WW decide to work with you, so you only pay for when you were resident. It cannot be worth them wasting more time and money ploughing the same furrow.

[stuckinarut11]

To be honest, i never thought i would be reading this.

 

Congratulations on your success.

 

I would hope after this, that WW decide to work with you, so you only pay for when you were resident. It cannot be worth them wasting more time and money ploughing the same furrow.

 

 

Thank you very much. The guidance from this site has been invaluable.

 

The key fact to this was by WW own code of conduct they claim they will read a meter every 6 months. (Kept this under my belt ad it was my last option)

 

As such section 144 4b of the water act became relevant to the case.

 

As such the first relevant date could have been March 2010 or October 2010 or March 2011 or October 2011 and so on. The claimant focussed on purely March 2010 what about all the other attempts?

 

The judge allowed the claimant opportunity to object but the counsel made no permissible explanation and as such the case was struck out on result of appeal.

 

The cost schedule was described as ludicrous when the amount claimed was brought to his attention.

 

The claimants did not have an easy ride.

 

In fairness I was not even called to the stand I was just asked is your agreement purely on section 144 and that the law has been mis applied to which I responded yes your honour

[martin2006]

Well done witsend, great result

[AndyOrch]

A very well done from me witsend99...your persistence/ tenacity paid off.

 

Thread title amended to reflect the outcome.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[stuckinarut11]

It is with disbelief that I have had formal notification from CCWater that Welsh water will be proceeding with another claim/hearing to determine the dates of occupancy.

 

I fail to understand how this can be achieved as the claim should be for a specific amount

[unclebulgaria67]

You will have to see what they come forward with.

 

I don't think you have a problem paying for amounts related to when you were occupying the property. Perhaps take the moral high ground and start paying what you think is owed.

[stuckinarut11]

I'll need to do my calculations

 

Speculation only based on the fact I would never have had a bill for the amount the judge finds I was occupying and considering I will now make payments not exceeding what I think I owe would it be fair to have a CCJ as I would argue that had I been provided with an accurate bill litigation would not have needed to be commenced.

 

I can't have a CCJ

[Old Cogger]

avg say £380 per year?? was the lower limit before meters