Welsh Water claim form received £2132.70***On Appeal Judgment Struck Out***

[martin2006]

The hard work has been all yours witsend, all we do is try to point people in the right direction to help themselves to the knowledge they need to fight back properly.

Glad to see your still fighting.

[stuckinarut11]

Appeal is listed

 

December 15th

 

I really didn't expect this so soon they have said Summer 2017 all along

 

The judge has requested a skeleton argument from the Respondent 7 days prior to hearing

[martin2006]

Make certain you file and serve on time Witsend, regardless of what they do or dont do.

[stuckinarut11]

4 days until the appeal a long year battle all comes down to 3 hours.

 

The Respondent has failed to file their skeleton argument as ordered by Thursday.

 

I will contact the courts regarding this failure tomorrow.

 

Thursday is the hearing

[martin2006]

Im not 100% sure I would contact the courts witsend, i would prefer to let them hang themselves by not filing it and make it the first thing you bring to the courts attention on Thurs.

[unclebulgaria67]

Agree. If they provide it late, then advise the Judge that they have severly affected your ability to respond as a LiP.

 

The Judge might decide that a adjournment is needed and Welsh Water can pay for Thursdays hearing costs of both sides, but you may need to suggest this. You would have had a week to work on a response had they filed on time, so a weeks adjournment would be minimum expected.

[stuckinarut11]

Im not 100% sure I would contact the courts witsend, i would prefer to let them hang themselves by not filing it and make it the first thing you bring to the courts attention on Thurs.

 

This was my initial thought

however I need to know how they intend to defend the case.

 

I don't want to be put on the spot I need to be prepared.

 

I will makes sure the court are fully aware it was filed late

 

This is the case in a nut shell all comes down to section 144

it is ordered that....pdf

[unclebulgaria67]

So if you remind them and they supply it Tuesday or Wednesday, then Judge says you have had enough time. They might respond by quoting relevant case law and you then need time to think about it. Might be unfair, but trying to argue about failure to file on time without knowing court rules on this, might put you in a difficult position.

[stuckinarut11]

I just want it over and done with the appeal is purely on the section 144 as to when was the relevant date.

 

I'm hoping this is a sign they are not continuing the battle and will not attend

[martin2006]

I just want it over and done with the appeal is purely on the section 144 as to when was the relevant date.

 

I'm hoping this is a sign they are not continuing the battle and will not attend

 

Dont hold your breath about them attending, always assume they will be there.

They may even try to slip it to you just before the hearing itself, been done many a time in the past. Dont let them get away with any such underhand tricks

[stuckinarut11]

I will be there unless I have an email from the court prior to advice otherwise.

 

Hopefully will know more on their position tomorrow

[stuckinarut11]

her is the respondents argument

 

filed this morning with the court

 

I am at a total loss, this has been written by a barrister

Respondent_s Skeleton-12717084_1-[234].pdf

[unclebulgaria67]

How many agents visits to the property by Veolia ?

 

I take it that the supply is not metered ?

 

Did Fredriksons advise Welsh Water ?

 

I can see what they are saying that you did not inform WW directly that you had vacated the property and were not using any water sewerage. The question arises that had you informed them, then WW would have asked you about the situation e.g was the property to remain empty with water turned off

[stuckinarut11]

Welsh water were not acting on the account at time in question, fredricksons were, they were advised in many collection calls that I had vacated the address.

 

In total 3 visits by Veolia their appointed representative.

 

The supply is metered

 

Frederick's ons did not advice Welsh water and a SAR has been useless as over 6 years ago

[martin2006]

Its quite heavy reading, I'll have another read later.

 

I take it at this time you will be relying solely on s144 4(b) in that the termination became effected when the meter was read?

[stuckinarut11]

Indeed section 144 4b

 

Thanks for looking I'm totally at a loss now

[martin2006]

Have you also submitted a skeleton argument for why its applicable?

[unclebulgaria67]

Might be a question already answered, but given that the supply is metered, then the bill must relate to water usage and relevant sewerage costs at the address.

 

Your argument is that you were not the occupier liable for the usage ?

 

The water act seems to say that unless you told them you moved out, you were still the occupier under the act that was responsible for any usage. There is no definition of ' occupier' in the act ?

[martin2006]

Unless you have a solid argument that s144(4)(b) applies i really cant see any other outcome than that of the original judge.

[stuckinarut11]

Why wouldn't section 144 b apply it's written into the statue of law

 

A skeleton argument has not been requested from myself due to the fact it's already been provided in a statement form for the permission hearing.

[stuckinarut11]

It is written into the water company's code of conduct that meters will be read every 6 months.

 

I have checked my postcode and reading months are March and October.

 

So Veolia were in attendance to read the meters

[martin2006]

Read what i wrote witsend, i didnt say it didnt apply, i said unless you have a solid argument that it does apply. Given they have provided an argument that it doesnt.

 

you must argue that it does and much will depend on who is the more convincing on the day.

[unclebulgaria67]

Is this bill based on estimated usage or actual ? Where a meter cannot be read, i believe they send a bill based on previous usage. Did they do this ?

 

When a relative went into a care home, their meter which was inside the front door was not read for about a year. There were various threat letters sent about responsibilities under the water act etc. They read it in the end, as someone was there on another meter reading visit and explained no usage, as the occupier was in a care home. This was fed back to the water company and a bill was issued at nil being outstanding.

[unclebulgaria67]

After Veolia visited 3 times in about a week, what actions did WW take ?

 

What other visits took place by Veolia or WW or other agents ?

 

I think the principle under the water act is that the occupier has left an open connection, for which the water company have no way of finding out what the true position is in regard to billing for usage. The visits by Veolia are just showing an opinion by the agent that the property is empty. WW have then billed on the basis of estimated usage, due to not being able to read the meter. Fredricksons have then chased the debt and are not an agent in regard to notifying about occupancy of a property and usage.

 

I think you should be looking into water industry standards about what they should be doing in these circumstances where a property is empty and they can't read a meter. Presumably letters were sent to the address on numerous occasions trying to make contact.

[stuckinarut11]

This is the argument that I will have to go with.

 

I fail to see the relevance and or justification of some points within their defence, I just hope the judge on the day will allow common sense to prevail

 

I have mentioned in this document that surely it is the water providers obligation to investigate missed meter readings

pdf literature water.pd.pdf