Welsh Water claim form received £2132.70***On Appeal Judgment Struck Out***

[AndyOrch]

And that's the crux of the whole dispute.....as long as you have firm evidence..although the OC may refuse this as you never informed them direct...but keep your thread updated with what transpires witsend.

 

Andy

[stuckinarut11]

The evidence was supplied through the claimants witness statement.

 

The appeal was sent to court and served on claimant no objections has been raised and fee has been requested and paid

 

This is the document relied upon.

 

The appeal asks for what outcome you want.

 

We have said.

We accept liability for November 2009 until March 2010 as their own inspection report states property empty.

 

I've asked for case to be struck out

 

 

but if not the judgement is varied so that March 2010 to June 2013 does not form part of judgement to support this

 

 

any payment made would have gone on disputed amount as supplier failed to split accounts so that there was a disputed and undisputed balanace.

 

Furthermore despite having a payment arrangement in place for current charges they are reporting late payment something the ICO have taken in this is a separate accout to that subject to litigation

water.pdf

[AndyOrch]

The evidence was supplied through the claimants witness statement.

 

The appeal was sent to court and served on claimant no objections has been raised and fee has been requested and paid

 

Excellent...

[stuckinarut11]

Need urgent caselaw or court judgements in relation to an account being assigned to a third party.

 

Can anyone assist?

 

Appeal refused

 

 

however the appeal judgement states that

 

 

"the issue in this claim is wheather the appellant is liable to pay the water bill under the provisions of the water industry act 1991.

 

 

I have read the trail bundle and note that all the points raised in his appellants notice were put before judge xxx at the hearing, who also of course heard evidence from the respondent undermining some of the issues the appellant makes.

This was a decison for the district judge on the facts.

 

 

Where a district judge comes to findings of fact the appeal court cannot intervene unless it is shown that he came to a decision which is unsupported by evidence or is plainly wrong.

This case does not pass the threshold.

Accordingly I refuse permission to appeal

 

If the appellant seeks to renew his application for permission to appeal at a hearing as he is entitled to do so, he should obtain a transcript of the original judgement and send it to the court at leastb3 days before the date fixed for hearing"

 

I will be going to a oral hearing as the debt was assigned to fredrickons and as the assigned third party they were made aware of my vacation of the address.

 

As this is my last chance I would appreciate greatly some caselaw legal info to support the appeal

 

I was hoping not to have to get so technical however

 

Section 150a water act 1991

 

No relevant undertaker may commence proceedings before any court in respect of any charge in connection with the supply of water for domestic purposes or (as the case may be) the provision of sewerage services other than by the carrying out of trade effluent functions unless, not less than 28 days before doing so, the customer concerned was informed by it,

 

 

in such form and manner as may be prescribed, of—

 

(a)its intention to commence proceedings;

 

(b)the customer’s rights by virtue of this section; and

 

©such other matters (if any) as may be prescribed.

 

This is apparently a provision as per the defence at the hearing, should a published provision not be followed in best practice?

 

Were the water company under any obligation to adhere to the above?

[martin2006]

As its written into legislation, yes, absolutely

[stuckinarut11]

Their argument I failed to inform the undertaker it is purely on the below they obtained judgement

 

A person shall not be made liable by virtue of subsection (2) above for any charges fixed in relation to any premises by any relevant undertaker, except where—

 

(a)he fails to inform the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises at least two working days before he ceases to occupy them; and

 

(b)the charges are in respect of a period ending no later than with the first relevant day.

My argument section B.

I've just stumbled across this.

 

 

They attempted to read meter in March 2010 and recorded on their own paperwork property empty so surely I can argue that due to section B by law my termination date is March 2010.

 

(4)For the purposes of subsection (3) above,

“the first relevant day”, in relation to a case in which a person has ceased to be the occupier of any premises in relation to which charges are fixed by a relevant undertaker, means whichever of the following first occurs after he ceases to occupy the premises, that is to say—

 

(a)where that person informs the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises less than two working days before, or at any time after, he ceases to occupy them, the twenty-eighth day after he so informs the undertaker;

 

(b)any day on which any meter would normally have been read in order for the amount of the charges to be determined;

 

©any day on which any other person informs the undertaker that he has become the new occupier of the premises.

 

As its written into legislation, yes, absolutely

 

They did not provide 28 days notice mearly 14.

 

They did not draw my attention to the said legislation ( rights under section) until a Witness Statement was produced for proceedings

[martin2006]

It isnt legislation i am familiar with witsend so its difficult to comment, you appear to know it better than me but they are relying on certain parts of it then you should also use whatever is written into it to your own advantage

[stuckinarut11]

Much appreciated,

shame I didn't dig deeper sooner.

I see this as my last chance I will not be defeated.

 

You have been direct throughout and if you consider it worth an argument then it's an argument I'll put forward after all if I had no chance you'd tell me.

 

I'm baffled how they even obtained judgement

is it not expected to provide full sections of legislation and not snippets to the claimants advantage bearing in mind I'm acting as litigant in person.

 

Should the judge not have researched the relevant sections before passing his judgement if it takes a technicality to have this thrown out then a technicality it will be.

 

I'll keep you updated. I've got 7 days reply to request oral hearing.

 

Final question I read they can state no right to oral hearing is this common practice?

[martin2006]

See CPR 52:11 in particular s2

[stuckinarut11]

Big day tomorrow

 

Appeal oral hearing. Listed for 30 mins

[AndyOrch]

Please update your thread witsend99 with whatever transpires ...good or bad.

 

Best of luck

 

Andy

[martin2006]

Good luck witsend

[stuckinarut11]

Good news.

 

I took this right back and focussed on one argument rather than several.

 

They obtained judgement under section 144 part 3 of water industry act 1991.

 

Section 144 was not disclosed in full at original hearing.

 

Section 144 part 4 states any day on which any meter would normally have been read in order for the amount of the charges to be determined;

 

As such my termination date is March 2010.

 

A stay of execution has been grated and an adjournment pending me obtaining a transcript of the judgement.

 

Appeal judge closed and said if judgement was awarded purely on section 3 you have a valid argument and ground for appeal as it's the law however before I make a final decison and to be fair to all I will require a transcript prior to granting permission to appeal.

 

He further went on to say of it is listed for appeal it will be summer 2017 due to his schedule.

 

What is the cheapest transcriber service around?

 

Their argument I failed to inform the undertaker it is purely on the below they obtained judgement

 

A person shall not be made liable by virtue of subsection (2) above for any charges fixed in relation to any premises by any relevant undertaker, except where—

 

(a)he fails to inform the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises at least two working days before he ceases to occupy them; and

 

(b)the charges are in respect of a period ending no later than with the first relevant day.

 

My argument section B.

I've just stumbled across this.

 

 

They attempted to read meter in March 2010 and recorded on their own paperwork property empty so surely I can argue that due to section B by law my termination date is March 2010.

 

(4)For the purposes of subsection (3) above, “the first relevant day”, in relation to a case in which a person has ceased to be the occupier of any premises in relation to which charges are fixed by a relevant undertaker, means whichever of the following first occurs after he ceases to occupy the premises, that is to say—

 

(a)where that person informs the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises less than two working days before, or at any time after, he ceases to occupy them, the twenty-eighth day after he so informs the undertaker;

 

(b)any day on which any meter would normally have been read in order for the amount of the charges to be determined;

 

©any day on which any other person informs the undertaker that he has become the new occupier of the premises.

[AndyOrch]

Well done wits...just ring around a few transcribers for quotes...although most county courts can recommend.

 

Andy

[martin2006]

Great news witsend, onwards and upwards.

 

Could possibly now be worth a letter asking if they wish to settle on your terms rather than wasting more costs, court time etc

[stuckinarut11]

They didn't turn up yesterday so will await them getting comms in post before making any proposal.

 

In fact the law this is suspended on means the liable period is 11/2009 to 03/2010

[stuckinarut11]

I write further to our telephone conversation of 1 September 2016 in which we agreed to stay any further communication between the parties until your appeal was heard on 7 September 2016.

 

* I understand that the Court has adjourned your appeal to the xxx and that a stay of execution of the Judgment has been ordered.*

 

* You have been ordered to prepare and file a transcript of the judgment by xxx.*

I have diarised this date accordingly.

 

I yet again respectfully suggest that you obtain your own independent legal advice.* In order to engage in effective dialogue.

 

As advised in our letter of 23 xxx you hold two accounts with us.

 

* Account number xxx is in respect of your ongoing water and sewerage charges for xxxx (“the Property”).

 

* Account number xxx is a ‘ring-fenced’ account subject to our litigation against you.*

 

* You made payments towards your ongoing charges numbered xxxx and cleared the balance of this account on 26 August 2016.

 

Account number xxx is currently in arrears of £2,202.70.

 

* I note you have made a payment of £100.00 towards this account on 26 August 2016.

 

* Our Managing Director clearly advised you of the terms of the Judgment Order in her email to you of 11 July 2016 and I will reiterate them here.

 

* The County Court Judgment was 28 days old on 11 July 2016

 

The Judgment does not have a specific date to make payment of the instalments of £50.00 per month.

 

* The usual terms are payment within the 28 days i.e. by 11 July 2016.

 

* However, we granted you an additional 14 days outside of this deadline to make payment of the first instalment, i.e. by 25 July 2016.

 

* Had you confirmed this as our Managing Director requested, we would have sent you a payment card and considered that you were complying with the Judgment Order.*

 

In your email to me dated 15 August 2016,

you allege that you have not received a payment card on the litigation account and referred to our Managing Director’s email to you dated 11 July 2016.

 

* However, you did not confirm your acceptance of this offer.

 

* In an email dated 11 July 2016 you responded to our Managing Director and accused her of threatening you.

 

* You refused to discuss payment terms until the appeal was considered.

 

* As such, I consider that you have clearly breached the terms of the Judgment and since you rejected the offer of repayment put to you, no payment card was sent in respect of this account.

 

* For the avoidance of doubt, we have not agreed to any formal instalment plan on your litigation account and the entire balance is owed and demanded.

 

You disclosed that there has been another occupier of the Property for the past three years, being your ex-partner who has recently vacated.

 

* I refer to your letter of 19 June 2016 sent to our offices on 18 August 2016 which enclosed a ‘Budget Summary For Creditors’.

 

* In that summary you have listed the number of adults in the property as at 19 June as being 1, although this now appears to be misleading. *

 

*Further in your summary you stated you paid £100.00 a month towards your Council Tax,

however in your email of 15 August 2016 you state that Council Tax was paid by your ex-partner.

 

*I am sure you can appreciate that in respect of considering any settlement proposals, this puts us in a difficult position.

 

* In order to work with you in managing your account, you have to be open and honest in respect of your financial circumstances.

 

* I am therefore not willing to consider any settlement proposal absent of full disclosure of your financial position, signed by a statement of truth.

 

* An income and expenditure form can be obtained here.

 

You have queried why you were the only individual liable for water and sewerage charges at the Property.

 

* In the first instance, we are able to hold any occupier jointly and severally liable for the services we provide.

 

* Secondly, neither you nor your ex-partner previously disclosed his identity or requested to be joined to the ongoing charges account.

 

* Please note that we will not engage in any other dialogue with you in respect of your liability for the sums awarded under the Judgment, as our position has been clearly provided to you in the proceedings.

 

* In any event, you are appealing the same so it is not appropriate to comment on it further.

 

In respect of our Customer Assistance Fund,

you are aware that your application has been rejected on a number of occasions

 

* Despite your allegation, this is not a ‘breach of contract’ as the Fund is discretionary and there is no automatic entitlement to it.

 

* Considering you are still engaged in an appeal of the Judgment, and that you have not disclosed an accurate account of your financial position, the Fund is not available to you.

 

* In your email of 17 August 2016 you have invited us to present a bankruptcy petition against you.

 

* I note your request, however we do not intend to commence such action at this time.

 

If you wish to disclose your financial circumstances and make an offer of payment for the whole debt outstanding, please complete, sign and return the Income and Expenditure form.

 

* I will also require sight of the following:

 

Wage Slips for the last three months;

Bank statement for the last three months;

andA copy of your Tenancy Agreement for the Property.

 

Please note that we will not enter into any settlement proposals without full disclosure as requested above.

 

* In respect of CCWater’s email dated 7 September 2016, you require confirmation that you can carry on paying £50.00 a month towards your current charges in anticipation of the new bill.

 

* Please note that although we acknowledge you are appealing the Judgment, we consider that the balance under xx is owed.

 

* As such, we are entitled to allocate any payments you make to us to the oldest debt.

Please note that any payments you do make will not constitute a formal repayment arrangement without our prior agreement and the evidence we have requested above.

*

Yours sincerely

 

Leon Hughes

 

Litigation Manager

 

This is the latest.

 

A stay of execution had been granted.

 

Payments of 50 have been made each month until stay was issued,

they allocated a payment to current charges hence they claim a breach of contract.

 

This is purely a tactic to which I have replied

 

Good afternoon.*

 

Please be advised legal advice has been obtained and this is why the case has been stayed as the judge stated I have a reasonable argument of law based on the legislation you obtained the judgement under.

 

I have received formal notification via the post that a payment plan of £25 per month had been arranged and a payment plan issued.*

 

In respect of the litigated account it was ordered payments of £50 per a month regardless of your allocation I have made a payment of at least £50 each month since the judgement and these payments were made on methods I had access to. Note current charges have also been cleared.

 

It is contested that I have breached the order and I consider this to be your personal opinion I shall obtain clarification from judge Vosper during the next hearing.*

 

Taking all the below into consideration I shall await further direction from the courts.

 

To avoid any element of doubt the case has been stayed should you require any documentation in the meantime I invite you to apply through the courts for an order.

 

A stay of execution on an active judgement is only granted where there is a reasonable ground of appeal based on an act of law.

 

Welsh Water and Hugh James failed to disclose the full legislation section 144 and relied on certain sections had the full section been disclosed it would have been established the first relevant date Is such a time you tried to read the meter, from your own documents this was in March 2010 on 3 occasions in fact.*

 

Based on the above and the fact the judge has stayed the execution I would request you do not correspond with me any further until judge Vosper has decided if this is a legitimate enforceable judgement in the meantime I will continue to pay £25 a month to current charges as per the formal letter and card received.*

 

Kind regards

 

Any opinions???

[stuckinarut11]

What a nightmare.

 

Order for transcript was 5th however as it was originally delivered later there was a delay in obtaining. As original.hearing was issued initially.

 

After paying a 20% uplift draft judgement was issued Friday to the original judge for his approval.

 

In this time the claimant tried to get me for breach of order.

 

I've had assurance the judge is sitting tomorrow afternoon so will review and file with appeal court by close of play tomorrow

 

This is draining me. Surely the claimant must see thet4 case is not strong and to back down

[stuckinarut11]

The transcript

Vs

 

A person shall not be made liable by virtue of subsection (2) above for any charges fixed in relation to any premises by any relevant undertaker, except where—

 

(a)he fails to inform the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises at least two working days before he ceases to occupy them; and

 

(b)the charges are in respect of a period ending no later than with the first relevant day.

 

My argument section B.*

 

You attempted to read meter in March 2010 and recorded on your own paperwork property empty so surely by law my termination date is March 2010.

 

(4)For the purposes of subsection (3) above, “the first relevant day”, in relation to a case in which a person has ceased to be the occupier of any premises in relation to which charges are fixed by a relevant undertaker, means whichever of the following first occurs after he ceases to occupy the premises, that is to say—

 

(a)where that person informs the undertaker of the ending of his occupation of the premises less than two working days before, or at any time after, he ceases to occupy them, the twenty-eighth day after he so informs the undertaker;

 

(b)any day on which any meter would normally have been read in order for the amount of the charges to be determined;

 

©any day on which any other person informs the undertaker that he has become the new occupier of the premises.

file.pdf

[stuckinarut11]

These idiots today decided they would walk in through an unlocked door to read my meter.

 

Yes that's right they obtained entry without knocking.

 

Ok yes I do currently have building works due to gas issues and the system being replaced and there are caution signs outside saying loose floor boards and hot working area however surely this does not grant welsh water the right of access.

 

When I confronted the individual he failed to produce any warrent.

 

His words the door was open I didn't knock as I know the meter is by the back door

 

I literally came face 2 face with him in my living room the contractors in my house were gobsmacked

[stuckinarut11]

Permission to appeal granted ☺☺ had a heating this am with full transcript disclosed

 

It's been worth the battle one more court date for the appeal hearing and this should be over

[martin2006]

I hope you reported the meter reader for entering without oermission or warrant.

Whens the appeal hearing?

[stuckinarut11]

I did indeed and the judge has extended the stay and will be writing to them regarding the enforcement and breach of his stay.

 

No date set yet

[martin2006]

Good stuff witsend, let us know the date when you get it and of course, pop back for help if you need it.

[stuckinarut11]

The judge is requesting the claimant submit a skeleton argument in the state of law prior so once that is filed I will need help.

 

Martin2006

this appeal was submitted due to your advice and links to facts.

 

 

Much appreciated as I'm aware not many appeals do get accepted

however you encouraged me to dig and I happened to stumble across an aspect of law/statue that has allowed the appeal