Welsh Water claim form received £2132.70***On Appeal Judgment Struck Out***

[stuckinarut11]

Absolute joke of a claim. Which has been fully defended.

 

The claim was issued in the following particulars:

"Water charges and sewerage charges (where applicable) upto 16th October 2015, in the sum of £1947.70 inclusive of any arrears, full particulars whereof have already been served"

 

I responded to AOS defend claim.

Also sent letter to court stating the particulars are not complete and I need further full and complete particulars to issue a defense.

 

Welsh water state the further particulars they refer to are the bills.

 

This is not a case of debt avoidance,

the claimant Welsh Water Have been put to strict proof to prove I was responsible for the supply for dates claimed.

 

They have failed to provide accurate bills.

 

They assigned this debt to Fredricksons for over 3 years and refused to speak directly with me.

 

They took the file back from Fredricksons in November and issued claim a day later.

 

Defence submitted

 

The defendant denies liability of this claim in it entirety and respectfully asks the court to consider a strike out as the claimant has failed to provide full and adequate particulars of claim to allow a fair trail.

 

This has jeopardised the defendant as he is forced to submit a defence without details of the full claim brought mainly when the supply/account was opened in the defendant’s name.*

 

The claimant has failed to provide adequate particulars of the claim, to allow the defendant a fair opportunity to submit a defence

 

To date the particulars of claim served as per the N1SDT claim form are

“ Water charges and Sewerage (where applicable) up to 14th October 2015, in the sum of £1947.70 inclusive of any arrears, full particulars whereof have already been served.*

 

The defendant has had no further correspondence form the claimant and upon questioning the further particulars mentioned, the claimant advised the defendant you have been issued with 6 monthly bills.*

 

Over the last several years the claimant has failed to provide the defendant with accurate bills.*

 

Upon moving into the property in 2010, the defendant raised a dispute in relation to a bill issued and the claimant transferred the account to Frederickson international, a debt collection agency.

 

The dispute was regarding charges on the bill that were prior to the defendant being liable for the property.

 

Since this account was assigned to Frederickson, the debt collection agencies have been demanding money by menace from the defendant.*

 

Fredericksons have managed this account for over 4 years and throughout this time hve refused to accept the defendant has a valid dispute*

 

The claimant has not tried to amicably resolve this matter with the claimant and has issued proceedings as soon as the account was returned from Fredricksons.

 

Furthermore the defendant suffers from a disability which allows him eligibility for the water assist reduction programme.*

 

To allow a proper and full defence to be submitted the defendant respectfully requests that the claimant issues full and proper particulars of claim,

provide the defendant the date that this account commenced and the debt initiated.

 

Furthermore the defendant would request a copy of the first and final bill issued to him.*

 

The defendant furthermore requests that he is entitled to submit a further defence once he is aware of the full grounds of claim that is brought against him.

 

Reply to defence from water co states

 

1. The claimant is a statoury water and sewerage undertaker appointed under section 11 of the water act 1991 and acting in accordance with the water industry act 1991.

 

2. Water and sewerage charges are statoury charges levied in accordance with section 142 of the water industry act 1991 and in accordance with the scheme charges made under section 143 of the water industry act 1991.

 

3. The claimant is the statoury water and sewerage undertaker in the defendants local area.

 

4. At all martial times the defendant has been the occupier of (address) the property to which water and sewerage services are supplied.*

 

5. The defendant has been billed for water and sewerage charges for the property via meter serial number xxxx.

 

6. On 2nd December 2008 the defendant telephoned the claimant and requested that the account name be amended because his grandfather had passed away in August he advised that he already resided there and will continue to do so.

 

 

The claimant denies therefore that the defendant moved into the property in 2013 as alleged.

 

 

The account was changed into the name of the defendant with effect from December 2008.

 

7. The claimant submits that the charges which are subject to the claim are for the period 17 November 2009 to 14 October 2015.

All charges prior to this period have been written off in accordance with the limitations act 1980.

A statement of account is attatched.

 

8. The claimant has issued all accounts on a six monthly basics in accordance with its scheme of charges

 

9. From 2nd December 2008 the defendant has failed to identify any disability or to notify the claimant of any circumstances which provide for eligibility for one of the claimant's customer assist schemes.

 

10. The claimant acknowledges that prior to issuing this claim the debt was with an external debt collection agency who failed to collect any payments from the defendant.

 

After receiving their full particulars I wrote the below letter

 

Good evening.*

 

Thank you for confirming the details of the claim.

Under civil court proceedings the burden of proof does lay with yourself to prove your claim.

 

Please see attached evidence from my credit file from the local authority.

Electrol roll

I have not resided or been responsible for the water supply for the dates claimed.

Initially I resided at the property between October 2008 - October 2009.

In October 2009 I moved to (address)

 

I took all responsibility for the address in question in June 2013.

* You have been very underhand in your tactics to date and have commenced litigation without trying to resolve matters amicably or even discuss.

 

I am not responsible for any debt at the property prior to June *2013.

 

Although I temporarily resided at the address between October 2008 and 2009.

This debt is now statue barred as of October 2015 so cannot be enforced through the court.

 

Between October 2009 and June 2013 I lived at address.

I can provide letters to confirm this aswell as Electrol roll register attached to this letter.

 

I became legally responsible for this address in June 2013.

You have never let me explain this and Fredricksons don't listen and demand money by menace.

I must stress the burden of proof lies with you!!!!!

The Electrol role is an official lawfully document.*

 

I look forward to hearing from you

Kind regards

An anxiety suffering annoyed

Name

 

They have responded and stated:-

 

1. Whilst you state you occupied the property until October 2009 you failed to inform us that you had vacated the property and you are therefore held liable for the charges raised.

 

 

You also failed to inform us that you were in occupation of address and charges have not been levied for the period you claim you were in occupation.

 

2. We acknowledge that a bill for the sun of £2455.22 was issued to you in April 2015 in respect of the period 21 October 2014 to 29 April 2015 inclusive of arrears.

 

 

We further acknowledge that the claim was issued to you for £2132.70 inclusive of costs,

prior to issue of a claim we undertake a file review and in accordance with the limitations act 1980 we have accordingly written off any statue barred charges in order for the claim to be fully complaint.

We confirm that a letter before action for this amount was sent to you in accordance with the pre action protocol.*

 

Further as set out in our reply to defence

we confirmed that charges which are subject to the issue of this claim are for the period 17 November 2009 to 14 October 2015 which was evidenced in a statement of account annexed to reply to defence.*

 

3. Prior to issue of the claim we attempted to address the charges on your account and the debt owed to us without successfully.

 

 

Further to be eligible for one of the affordability schemes offered by the claimant

the defendant must provide evidence of his financial situation and apply in order for us to establish whether you would qualify for assistance under the criteria governing the scheme.*

 

I'm now awaiting a mediation appointment.*

 

Any guidance of next steps

[citizenB]

I think your response to their full particulars/witness statement should have been submitted to the court in the form of a rebuttal witness statement from yourself.

[stuckinarut11]

The response letter was only issued to them it was not filed.

 

I wouldn't submit a letter unless in document exchange.

 

The last filed document was their reply to defenc

 

Claim is still in bulk centre so want to await transfer before filing at court

 

I'm tempted to submit and file this..

 

I would formally request I receive the following documentation from you:

 

1. Validation of the debt (the actual accounting)

 

2. Verification of your claim against me (a sworn affidavit or a hand signed invoice in accordance with The Bills of Exchange Act (1882)*

 

3. A copy of the contract signed by both parties and therefore binding both parties.

 

4. Please also provide me with a true and certified copy (NOT photocopy) of the Original Note (Credit Agreement), under penalty of perjury and with unlimited liability and confirm that this Note, has never been sold.

 

 

Please also confirm the name of the individual who is the duly authorised representative from your company, who has carried out due diligence under The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 and what actions s/he has taken in relation to this account.

 

I dispute any and all claims made against me, including and not limited to Solicitor fees unless a true bill and breakdown of fees can be produced

 

I am unaware of any binding contract between myself and Dwr Cymru Ltd for the supply of water, I have no contract or any desire to contract with Dwr Cymru.

 

On 28 July 2010, through Resolution 64/292, the United Nations General Assembly explicitly recognized the human right to water and sanitation and acknowledged that clean drinking water and sanitation are essential to the realisation of all human rights.

 

In November 2002, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights adopted General Comment No. 15 on the right to water.

 

 

Article I.1 states that "The human right to water is*

indispensable for leading a life in human dignity.

 

 

It is a prerequisite for the realization of other human rights".

Comment No. 15 also defined the right to water as the right of everyone to sufficient, safe, acceptable and physically accessible and affordable water for personal and domestic uses.*

 

 

Everyone has the right to a water and sanitation service that is physically accessible within, or in the immediate vicinity of the household

 

Affordable. Water, and water facilities and services, must be affordable for all.

The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) suggests that water costs should not exceed 3 per cent of household income.

 

The water company send me a credit slip and not a "true bill" I neither wish to give or receive credit.

 

The water company claim I have consented to pay them when I have not,

I demand that they show me a binding contract and show where I have consented in writing to pay for my right to a natural resource that is essential to my survival.

 

The water company are obliged to supply water to me as a human right.

 

Water companies are obliged to supply water under statute law and / or acts of parliament.

 

 

I have not entered into any contract and to the best of my knowledge statutes and acts are only given the force of law by consent,

 

 

as I have not consented or entered into any contract with Dwr Cymru

*I ask that any and all claims made on me in this matter are struck out.

 

Furthermore I formally request that you provide evidence of the level of*fluoride contained in your supply?

 

No man shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers.*

 

I look forward to hearing from you,

I cam confirm the same will be filled with court.

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to General Legal Issues.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[steampowered]

A lot of your draft response is 'freeman of the land' nonsense that will not hold up in court. You can't ask for validation of the debt / affidavits / credit agreements. It isn't correct to suggest that statutes are binding only if you consent as this is not true. Asking about the level of flouride in the water etc. has no relevance to the case.

 

The basis for water charges is statutory - I've asked someone with a bit more knowledge to look in for you.

 

I understand from your posts that you lived at the property from 2008 but think you only became responsible for water charges in 2013. Can I ask why you think that, what changed in 2013? It would be helpful if you could provide a short history of your occupation in the property.

[stuckinarut11]

I resided here prior to 2008 with a family member.

 

When he passed in 2008

I notified them and advised I would be occupying the property this was a temporary measure.

 

I then vacated the property when probate etc etc went through.

 

In 2013 I was passed a percentage of ownership by a family member and took permenant residence at the address.

 

The debt from 2009 is statue barred not subject to claim.

 

I will pay a bill upright from June 2013 and not a day before.

 

They have been provided with copies of the Electrol register to prove my residency status and dates.

 

 

An official register

 

I'm confident ish as after all the burden of proof lies with them

[AndyOrch]

" When he passed in 2008 I notified them and advised I would be occupying the property this was a temporary measure."

 

How long was temporary ?

 

 

The following may be of interest

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?457650-Court-Action-by-Welsh-Water

 

Regards

 

Andy

[stuckinarut11]

I stayed at the property until October 2009 so Just under a year.

 

Resided at another address from this date until 2013

- In June 1013 I legally took over responsibility of the address and all associated bills.

 

I think its important to note that initially I was not a beneficiary to the estate in terms of the house however in 2013 a family members share was passed to myself.

 

The grounds Welsh Water are continuing the claim is that:-

 

"Whilst you state you occupied the property until October 2009

you failed to inform us that you had vacated the property and you are therefore held liable for the charges raised.

 

 

You also failed to inform us that you were in occupation of (address between Oct 209 and June 2013)and charges have not been levied for the period you claim you were in occupation."

 

I have read the other thread.

Thanks for the heads up,

Sadly i have not got a faulty meter so it not relevant in terms of defense however some useful information about success etc etc.

 

Think I may be onto something here

 

Section 150A of the Water Act 1991

 

No relevant undertaker may commence proceedings before any court in respect of any charge in connection with the supply of water for domestic purposes or (as the case may be) the provision of sewerage services other than by the carrying out of trade effluent functions unless, not less than 28 days before doing so, the customer concerned was informed by it, in such form and manner as may be prescribed, of—

 

(a)its intention to commence proceedings;

(b)the customer’s rights by virtue of this section; and

©such other matters (if any) as may be prescribed.

 

A LBA was issued on the 26/10/2015

 

Claim was issued on the 11th November.

 

Not 28 days as per the Act.

From their defense "Water and sewerage charges are statoury charges levied in accordance with section 142 of the water industry act 1991 and in accordance with the scheme charges made under section 143 of the water industry act 1991"

[steampowered]

The best thing to do now is to follow the court process. As you have filed a defence with the court it is not necessary to play letter tennis with the water company.

 

You should shortly receive a directions questionnaire, it is best to tick the box agreeing to mediation. It would be worth trying to settle for the amount which you think you are liable for.

[AndyOrch]

Personally witsend99 I think you are over complicating this......

 

This is the procedure....on death you inform the Utility company..the account is then finalised and closed.So any usage from there on is then passed on to the new resident...or existing joint resident....or new owner.

 

You informed them that you will be residing temp until Oct 09...you didnt inform them you had left?

 

You then moved back in 2013 after a 3 year gap.

 

I personally do not think you can get around the following from their defence...

 

1. Whilst you state you occupied the property until October 2009 you failed to inform us that you had vacated the property and you are therefore held liable for the charges raised. You also failed to inform us that you were in occupation of address and charges have not been levied for the period you claim you were in occupation.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[stuckinarut11]

Thanks Andy.

 

They were notified by letter, due to time elapsed have no evidence to support.

 

Also their in house collection team were advised in late 2009 early 2010 I no longer lived there on a phonecall.

 

Water charges were paid between 2009 and 2013 at the other address just the account was not in my name

 

I have also provided them with Electrol roll records confirming residence at both addresses and confirming the dates.

 

2008 -2009 & 2013 to present in the claimed property

 

2009-2013 in the other house before I aquired the property subject to claim

[AndyOrch]

It doesn't really matter if they were advised or not to be honest witsend99...the next resident picks up the tab....now that tab can be minimal if the account was fully closed down in 2009 or it can still be running....

 

Scenario...if a new resident occupied the property from 2013 they would not be liable..only from the date they purchased and reside.You were an existing resident with temp residence and then got full control of the property......therefore they stick the bill on you.

 

Unless you can prove that you closed the account down and finalised it...paid any outstanding debt in 2009 ...then I think your defence is pointless.

 

I may be wrong...but that's the way they all work including Gas and Electric.

[stuckinarut11]

Thanks I appreciate your comments.

 

It's not in me to bow down and accept this. I will continue to defend and if needs be attend a hearing.

 

I'm thinking of a 25% settlement offer on the basics the claim is not compliant with section 150 of water industry act 1991.

 

28 days notice were not give before the claim was issued.

 

It's the only thing I can see possibly standing up.

[stuckinarut11]

They have gone to my credit file.

 

They claim the account was opened in 2006.

The record is not a true reflection of the account as they report

 

October 6 payments late

November no arrears

December one payment late

January two payments late

 

This record was added when they were aware of a dispute.

I can't have this for 6 years.

 

Any suggestions how to proceed

[AndyOrch]

Make it part of your defence and challenge them within your witness statement.

[stuckinarut11]

Can I report them to ICO. its not a true reflection.

 

It's taken 2 years to clear up my credit file and was in a position to get a decent mortgage until this.

 

I need it off but will not be intimidated to pay the full amount.

[AndyOrch]

Paying it off wont resolve it ...it will still show for 6 years..you need it corrected...and through your defence is the ideal opportunity...you can also copy the ICO in.

[stuckinarut11]

Thanks Andy

[AndyOrch]

Retain hard copies as evidence that the markers have only just been placed during the dispute and litigation...then you can attach as exhibits to your witness statement.

[stuckinarut11]

Is there any specific law legislation that I could refer to regarding this??

[AndyOrch]

The normal channels are best.....FOS /ICO

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/117/117-credit.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/sep/06/debt.internetphonesbroadband

[stuckinarut11]

Update

 

Welsh water have responded to my SAR request on day 40.

 

 

Included in this was a memo,

the text has been marked over

however under a light you can clearly read

"Inspector 3333 visited address 4th Jan 2011, house for sale.

Note from neighbour property unoccupied.

Phone line has been disconnected.

 

Refresh welsh water bring this claim from November 2009.

 

I have provided them Electrol roll information that I was occuping the property since 2013.

 

They are trying to claim for the 4 years previous.

 

Document exchange and witness statement to be filled at court by end of month.

 

Judge ruled back to mediation as was cancelled due to overbooking

so this is now running along side proceedings and is booked for Friday.

[stuckinarut11]

The credit file entry states the account was opened in 2006 see previous post.

 

I was 16 at that time. DECEMBER 2008 I was 18.

 

Furthermore under section 150a of the Water act I need to be given 28 days notice as a consumer of intended legal action.

 

A Letter before action was posted 14 days prior to claim being issued.

 

So under the legislation the water act that this claim has been brought against me the claim is not compliant

[AndyOrch]

All good information for your witness statement

 

Andy

[martin2006]

witsend, who lived at the property between the disputed dates, if anyone?