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Putin Murdered a British Subject

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So the report is out and as expected it puts the blame on Putin.

 

Home Secretary Theresa May said the murder was a "blatant and unacceptable" breach of international law.

 

But does Russia or Putin give a damn, of course not, they lie and cheat all over the world and don't give a damn about anyone, not even their own subjects.

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Worrying. There have been a few murders of Russians in the south east of England, which have been linked back to Russia. I seem to remember another case of a murder on a private road estate in Surrey, where it was said that the deceased had done something to annoy powerful people back in Moscow. Investigations said it was a professional hit, with no trace left of who might have been involved.


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Worrying. There have been a few murders of Russians in the south east of England, which have been linked back to Russia. I seem to remember another case of a murder on a private road estate in Surrey, where it was said that the deceased had done something to annoy powerful people back in Moscow.

 

Investigations said it was a professional hit, with no trace left of who might have been involved.

 

That last point is a lulu

 

Now I dont doubt that the Russian state murders those it considers its enemies wherever they may be, just as does every country.

An example is the murder (no due process or trial) of the British terrorist Jihadi John in Syria via drone strike in a sovereign state.

 

Its just the method that I find strange.

Ricin like the Bulgarian guy - absolutely, and any number of other easily found/made methods whether 'showy' or completely undetectable

but polonium ????

 

Easier to get than most people think, but still limits even the likely users, hence likely blame.

It probably killed madame Curie, and was quite possibly what killed Yassa Arafat although far more subtly - although the finger was pointed at the Israelis then.

.. and smokers beware ...

 

What really worries me is :

 

How the heck was polonium smuggled into the country past all our checks intended to catch dirty bombs - it is HIGHLY radioactive?

 

If it was put in a tea pot, how come those who are accused of doing that are not also dead or at least dying of polonium poisoning? - look up what happens if polonium is heated beyond 50 degrees.

 

Why is the area it was applied. apparently a hotel which is not glowing in the dark, with no checks or tests on everyone who was in the area?

 

 

It makes little more sense than the initial Turkish claim that the Russian jet was warned for 10 minutes to 'leave Turkish space.

 

Could well have been the Russians, but just doesn't make much sense to me. There are far better and easier ways for whatever effect they wanted - with no possibility of any comeback - all the benefits, none of the problems.


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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Of course he did it. This egotistical KGB Dictator has no respect for anyone, not even Russians.

Edited by Conniff

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That last point is a lulu

 

Now I dont doubt that the Russian state murders those it considers its enemies wherever they may be, just as does every country.

An example is the murder (no due process or trial) of the British terrorist Jihadi John in Syria via drone strike in a sovereign state.

 

Its just the method that I find strange.

Ricin like the Bulgarian guy - absolutely, and any number of other easily found/made methods whether 'showy' or completely undetectable

but polonium ????

 

Easier to get than most people think, but still limits even the likely users, hence likely blame.

It probably killed madame Curie, and was quite possibly what killed Yassa Arafat although far more subtly - although the finger was pointed at the Israelis then.

.. and smokers beware ...

 

What really worries me is :

 

How the heck was polonium smuggled into the country past all our checks intended to catch dirty bombs - it is HIGHLY radioactive?

 

If it was put in a tea pot, how come those who are accused of doing that are not also dead or at least dying of polonium poisoning? - look up what happens if polonium is heated beyond 50 degrees.

 

Why is the area it was applied. apparently a hotel which is not glowing in the dark, with no checks or tests on everyone who was in the area?

 

 

It makes little more sense than the initial Turkish claim that the Russian jet was warned for 10 minutes to 'leave Turkish space.

 

Could well have been the Russians, but just doesn't make much sense to me. There are far better and easier ways for whatever effect they wanted - with no possibility of any comeback - all the benefits, none of the problems.

 

I don't know what screening of diplomatic bags is allowed : if in a shielded container could the polonium have come in by diplomatic bag?

 

As for "with no checks or tests on everyone who was in the area?" :

Public Health England did an extensive study / follow-up

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/polonium-210-individual-monitoring-after-an-incident

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I don't know what screening of diplomatic bags is allowed : if in a shielded container could the polonium have come in by diplomatic bag?

 

As for "with no checks or tests on everyone who was in the area?" :

Public Health England did an extensive study / follow-up

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/polonium-210-individual-monitoring-after-an-incident

 

Yes I remember the rather casual seeming investigation, which seemed very 'laid back'

 

Did they search for and test everyone in the area as one would thing would be needed?

"At each location, risk assessments were undertaken to identify persons with significant risk of contamination with polonium-210. These individuals were invited to provide samples, not only to enable a direct assessment to be made of their own exposure, but also to inform decisions on whether others connected with the site should also provide samples or could be reassured"

 

and why have the reported instigators not died of polonium poisoning? They would have really stood out if they performed their assassination in hazmat suites.

 

 

Russia may b the main producer of polonium 210 for sale to approved buyers, BUT where can polonium 210 be purchased without any licence or tracking?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

"In USA, the devices with no more than 500 µCi (19 MBq) of (sealed) 210Po per unit can be bought in any amount under a "general license",which means that a buyer need not be registered by any authorities."

 

and although there are rumours that other people have died of acute polonium 210 poisoning, including some high profile deaths, this report says that this is the first confirmed one.

 

 

I don't doubt the Russians are expert assassins, possibly almost as good as the Israelis are alleged to be,

So, like I said - doesn't make sense.

 

How embarrassing for the Russians would it have been if the perpetrators had been caught and the assassination failed - at any stage?

Why highly radioactive and detectible polonium in tea rather than any number of other very horrible but easily acquired and moved substances?

How embarrassing has it been for the Russians has on success, whether or not they did it?

 

 

Don't mistake that I accept it could have been the Russians as I stated, it just doesn't make much sense. Putin may be many things, but he is a master of strategy .

and this has far too many risks of failure, far too difficult to implement and far too individual. Who would make an assassination more difficult, risky, expensive and prone to failure in so many ways???

 

What if after all that effort and risk, he just didnt drink the tea?

 

 


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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I'm not a fan of Putin, but accusing a state president of murder without any evidence and based only on the fact that he didn't like the poor guy is very wrong.

Following the same lines, we could all be accused of murder if someone we don't like happened to die in strange circumstances.

Scary

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Diplomatic bags do not get screened except at point of departure. They could commit murder or any crime and they're covered by diplomatic immunity.


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Was the person a British subject or a Russian living in the UK? Is it possible that our secret servcies have done the same to British or other people living in other countries who may affect our national security?

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Was the person a British subject or a Russian living in the UK? Is it possible that our secret servcies have done the same to British or other people living in other countries who may affect our national security?

 

I don't think so, otherwise they would have targeted the self confessed jihadists living within us.

I watched the channel 4 documentary "The jihadis next door" and I was shocked at the lack of action from mi5.

These terrorists are arrested and bailed every other day, they serve a couple of years at our expenses and then are back on the street for another few years recruiting more terrorists.

All under the disinterested eye of the authorities

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Was the person a British subject or a Russian living in the UK? Is it possible that our secret servcies have done the same to British or other people living in other countries who may affect our national security?

 

For example the hellfire missile sent 'special delivery' by drone strike to jihadi John in Syria?

(and well deserved however illegal/immoral it was to do it that way)

 

There is no real doubt that all countries do it.

 

 

An interesting snippet.

The death sentence for treason was 'in force' in the UK right up until 1998, although it was last used back in 1946.

 

Heres another. The top 5 countries for capital punishment (state 'legal' murder)

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/death-sentences-and-executions-2014

China again carried out more executions than the rest of the world put together. Amnesty International believes thousands are executed and sentenced to death there every year, but with numbers kept a state secret the true figure is impossible to determine.

 

 

China (no accurate figures but more than all the others put together is claimed)

 

Iran (289 officially announced and at least 454 more that were not acknowledged by the authorities),

 

Saudi Arabia (at least 90),

 

Iraq (at least 61)

 

USA (35).

 

and take a look at murder figures per country

('Death in Paradise' looks more likely after looking at Bermudas murder rate)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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No doubt whatsoever that the egotistical dictator ordered it personally, it is his style through and through. Pukin wants to stamp his authority under the guise of Russia on the world and murder and destabilization is the only weapon he has.

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Yes I remember the rather casual seeming investigation, which seemed very 'laid back'

 

Did they search for and test everyone in the area as one would thing would be needed?

"At each location, risk assessments were undertaken to identify persons with significant risk of contamination with polonium-210. These individuals were invited to provide samples, not only to enable a direct assessment to be made of their own exposure, but also to inform decisions on whether others connected with the site should also provide samples or could be reassured"

 

and why have the reported instigators not died of polonium poisoning? They would have really stood out if they performed their assassination in hazmat suites.

 

 

Russia may b the main producer of polonium 210 for sale to approved buyers, BUT where can polonium 210 be purchased without any licence or tracking?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

"In USA, the devices with no more than 500 µCi (19 MBq) of (sealed) 210Po per unit can be bought in any amount under a "general license",which means that a buyer need not be registered by any authorities."

 

and although there are rumours that other people have died of acute polonium 210 poisoning, including some high profile deaths, this report says that this is the first confirmed one.

 

 

I don't doubt the Russians are expert assassins, possibly almost as good as the Israelis are alleged to be,

So, like I said - doesn't make sense.

 

How embarrassing for the Russians would it have been if the perpetrators had been caught and the assassination failed - at any stage?

Why highly radioactive and detectible polonium in tea rather than any number of other very horrible but easily acquired and moved substances?

How embarrassing has it been for the Russians has on success, whether or not they did it?

 

 

Don't mistake that I accept it could have been the Russians as I stated, it just doesn't make much sense. Putin may be many things, but he is a master of strategy .

and this has far too many risks of failure, far too difficult to implement and far too individual. Who would make an assassination more difficult, risky, expensive and prone to failure in so many ways???

 

What if after all that effort and risk, he just didnt drink the tea?

 

 

 

 

On what grounds are you saying the investigation was "laid back"?

It had to be retrospective : they had to establish it was polonium poisoning before investigating it.

 

You note

"These individuals were invited to provide samples, not only to enable a direct assessment to be made of their own exposure, but also to inform decisions on whether others connected with the site should also provide samples or could be reassured" ; public health England can only invite people to provide samples, not force them!

 

You note : " and why have the reported instigators not died of polonium poisoning? They would have really stood out if they performed their assassination in hazmat suites."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12111319/Litvinenko-Inquiry-What-is-Polonium-210.html

 

Polonium 210 is an alpha emitter. It's radioactive emissions can be stopped eg by a sheet of paper (which is why it needed to be ingested)

 

So, the putative assassins would have only needed to avoid coming into direct contact with it, not needed a hazmat suit.

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You note : " and why have the reported instigators not died of polonium poisoning? They would have really stood out if they performed their assassination in hazmat suites."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12111319/Litvinenko-Inquiry-What-is-Polonium-210.html

 

Polonium 210 is an alpha emitter. It's radioactive emissions can be stopped eg by a sheet of paper (which is why it needed to be ingested)

 

So, the putative assassins would have only needed to avoid coming into direct contact with it, not needed a hazmat suit.

 

You need to look that up a little better than whatever is apparently in the telegraph, including that radioactive traces can be found on the machines they came into contact with and how polonium 210 can go airborne at as little as 55 degrees.

 

This is NOT stuff you can carry around in a 'paper' bag - well not in safety.

 

Its the tracks which seem to point the finger at the two Russians named. It seems quite convincing evidence that they 'handled' it.

Its that it can be tracked from the radioactivity left on inanimate objects touched which disprove your statements without needing to know the science..


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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You need to look that up a little better than whatever is apparently in the telegraph, including that radioactive traces can be found on the machines they came into contact with and how polonium 210 can go airborne at as little as 55 degrees.

 

This is NOT stuff you can carry around in a 'paper' bag - well not in safety.

 

Its the tracks which seem to point the finger at the two Russians named. It seems quite convincing evidence that they 'handled' it.

Its that it can be tracked from the radioactivity left on inanimate objects touched which disprove your statements without needing to know the science..

 

Of course traces can be found on items it had come into direct contact with : it's an alpha emitter with a half life of 138 days.

It'd be there at 16% of its original amount at a year (with 84% of it having decayed to lead) (provided it wasn't washed or rubbed off).

 

It went into a liquid (the tea). Either that liquid or the original sample contaminated a wide area : the hotel dining area, various rooms in hotels, a (BA, from memory) plane that had travelled from Russia .....

 

No-one said the assassins handled it in a paper bag. There was widespread contamination : but to be an effective weapon it needs to be ingested.

 

So, I'm not clear what your point is. Lack of ill effect in others (including the alleged assasains) doesn't rule out polonium 210 as a weapon, if they didn't ingest it.

 

The contamination by a radioactive substance that emits alpha particles at the same energy that polonium 210 means : it was polonium 210 : are you claiming there wasn't polonium 210? (I'm still unsure what you are saying did or didn't happen!)

 

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2007/January/Polonium210.asp

 

Metallic polonium has a melting point of 254 C and boils at 962 C.

It vaporises in air at 55 C, with 50 % vaporising at 45 hours.

 

Note : vaporises in air at 55 C : does it dissolve in tea at 55 C?

50% vaporised at 45 hours (in air!) : how much if any vaporises in tea at (whatever temp) after a much briefer interval?

 

What temperature was the tea when it was added? When was it added? (10-15 minutes post brew to give you your 55 C) :

 

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/experiments/exp/-0c2ee7e805/

 

Was it added as metallic polonium? A solution of a polonium salt??

 

So, I see nothing that contradicts the findings of the inquiry.

As for you being able to" disprove your statements without needing to know the science.." : I can't see where you have disproved anything, and if you aren't using the science as a basis to respond ; what are you using? Divination?

 

Science, the only religion that works, even if you don't believe in it.

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And as it can't even penetrate the skin, it can be carried on the person.

 

It's a very clever way of assassination, is virtually undetectable unless special equipment is used which is unlikely to be used in an NHS hospital when someone is brought in sick.

He could have died with no suspicion of it being murder but the Russians aren't as clever as they think they are.

Edited by Conniff

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So you two are saying that its reasonable that

 

Two master spies/assassins were so clumsy with polonium that they got enough personal exposure to it to leave a trail across London, and on everything they touched to an extent that even machines they used were easily found ..

 

Yet during all this time, and all this careless spreading of polonium evidence from their bodies, they didn't ingest/breath in/take a pee/wipe their bottoms enough to poison themselves with this substance that makes cyanide seem like a cappuccino with extra sugar.

 

Doesn't make sense. Possible of course, but not really reasonable as stated.


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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So you two are saying that its reasonable that

 

Two master spies/assassins were so clumsy with polonium that they got enough personal exposure to it to leave a trail across London, and on everything they touched to an extent that even machines they used were easily found ..

 

Yet during all this time, and all this careless spreading of polonium evidence from their bodies, they didn't ingest/breath in/take a pee/wipe their bottoms enough to poison themselves with this substance that makes cyanide seem like a cappuccino with extra sugar.

 

Doesn't make sense. Possible of course, but not really reasonable as stated.

 

Who says the alleged assasains contaminated all the other areas?

The contamination could have been transfer from objects contaminated, or other persons who weren't as careful after coming into contact with it.

 

Those other persons wouldn't necessarily have had symptoms if they didn't ingest it.

 

Some of the contamination would have had to have been from before the victim was exposed, but much from afterwards.

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This is a pointless debate. There was a Judge led inquiry and they would have had access to much more information.

 

As is always the case, there will be a dispute about the evidence. UK blames Russians, Russians point to other possible suspects.

 

We can do without a cold war period happening again.


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Who says the alleged assasains contaminated all the other areas?

 

The reports' reported conclusions.

Try reading a little more than newspaper headlines. Even there the body of text often gives far more than the headline.

 

 

Mind you, the telegraphs should be all you are looking for ...

 

but on the other hand the wiki entry is already worth reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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The reports' reported conclusions.

Try reading a little more than newspaper headlines. Even there the body of text often gives far more than the headline.

 

 

Mind you, the telegraphs should be all you are looking for ...

 

but on the other hand the wiki entry is already worth reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

 

" The report's reported conclusions" ; this suggests you are relying on the reporting by others, of the conclusion only, of the report.

 

I've cited the PHE report.

 

Go to the report itself.

 

I'm not relying on headlines, nor reports of headlines or reports of conclusions.

 

When I go to details : you say "oh, but Tobyjugg doesn't need to look at the science"

 

Some of the contamination was by the alleged assasains, some from the poisoning (tea) itself, and much by secondary transfer from either of the previous two.

 

As others have noted; the inquiry had the details and came to its conclusion. For you to dispute that, not produce anything that actually disproves it, and dismiss others more detailed rebuttals of your fallacies as "just reading headlines" : just shows how out of touch with the reality you are.

 

As for

"Mind you, the telegraphs should be all you are looking for ..." ; not for the first time I'm left wondering what you are actually trying to say : care to "put up, or shut up?"

If you actually believe what you are saying and can back it up : say it clearly and explain why. Otherwise you risk making yourself look (more) daft.

 

You say the inquiry's decision as to the events is implausible.

If we decide to bow to your extensive expert knowledge (required to reliably decide the inquiry's statement of events is implausible), give us your plausible explanation, then.

No doubt you can tell us what killed Litvinenko if it wasn't polonium,

Who the alternative killers were, and how they got the polonium (or other substance), and how the contamination found occurred.

 

If the two named weren't the killers but themselves victims (they were admitted to hospital in Russia) ; it is stil the case that the events were state sponsored : which state are you saying is responsible?

 

Not for the first time : care to state clearly what you believe to be true, rather than merely what you claim isn't true?

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It's a shame that some people just can't accept what others say even if those others are experts.

 

These two murderers aren't a couple of bumbling amateurs that were paid fifty quid to do a hit, these are professionals, trained and practiced in what they do. They were never at risk.

 

It's about time you came down to earth TJ.

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At least he's the only one standing up against ISIS and he should be commended. All governments kill spies, just the Russians don't seem to take much precaution. And what David Kelly? The MI5 did a good job there.


"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for Poundland"

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I don't think he is really standing up against ISIS, he is using that as a con to further his own agenda.

 

Since communism died and the Soviet Union broke up, (that is Russia lost the countries they invaded and stole), the world ranking of Russia has dwindled. They don't have the worldwide bases etc that they used to and Putin doesn't like that. He does have a base in Syria though and want's to hang on to that so he is fighting for the defence and continued friendship of Assad knowing he will lose his base there should the rebels win and take over the country.

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These two murderers aren't a couple of bumbling amateurs that were paid fifty quid to do a hit, these are professionals, trained and practiced in what they do.

 

Exactly my point.

The hit would have been efficient and untraceable

It would still have been laid at the feet of the Russians, made big headlines in the rags but with no evidence and no tracks and nothing but minor political rhetoric as comeback

... not even the probably's, possiblys. might haves. maybe's and could haves in the report, let alone the did's from you (strike those last 6 words).

 

and THAT would have instilled fear, dread and 'professional (sic) respect in their enemies and any who might betray them..


I express my honestly held opinions - they are nothing more or less than that.

... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

 

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended

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