Daughter due in crown court not identifying driver

[deb66]

My daughter is due in crown court on Friday for not identifying the driver of her car

 

Herself and partner insured to drive both have access and both drive the route where the alleged initial speeding offence took place often etc

 

6 months after an alleged speeding offence she receives a nip requiring drivers details. She replied saying she didn't know who it was driving

They sent her another form requiring the same she replied the same. Stating that she also felt that it was time barred

Now basically she is due in court for failing to give the name of driver which she actually despite extensive research asking for photos etc can't and could not ascertain

 

What should she do now

 

She is guilty of the offence of not providing details but is that it over etc

 

We have proof details were mixed up because she has had letters to another person from court regarding a totally unrelated offence and an unknown person Even had bailiff around for this unknown person for unpaid fine. (Potentially another data protection problem as we also have the persons old address and name and offence etc)

 

Does she have any defence etc

 

Thank you

[unclebulgaria67]

My daughter is due in crown court on Friday for not identifying the driver of her car

 

Herself and partner insured to drive both have access and both drive the route where the alleged initial speeding offence took place often etc

 

6 months after an alleged speeding offence she receives a nip requiring drivers details. She replied saying she didn't know who it was driving

They sent her another form requiring the same she replied the same. Stating that she also felt that it was time barred

Now basically she is due in court for failing to give the name of driver which she actually despite extensive research asking for photos etc can't and could not ascertain

 

What should she do now

 

She is guilty of the offence of not providing details but is that it over etc

 

We have proof details were mixed up because she has had letters to another person from court regarding a totally unrelated offence and an unknown person Even had bailiff around for this unknown person for unpaid fine. (Potentially another data protection problem as we also have the persons old address and name and offence etc)

 

Does she have any defence etc

 

Thank you

 

Do you mean Crown Court, as such cases are normally dealt with by Magistrates ?

 

Daughter and partner could see a Solicitor or both attend Court to make a statement that they both have access to the car, no information has been provided by Police or other body, to help either identify the driver on the day in question and neither is trying to frustrate the System. Then point out the other issues about you being sent third parties details and chased at your address by enforcement agents, as a mistake has been made by officials in mixing up data of different people. Daughter and partner more likely to receive a fair hearing if represented by a Solicitor.

 

Also very important to advise that they have responded to official forms asking for driver information and take any evidence with them.

[deb66]

No crown court. She was due to appear in magistrates court but due to being ill couldn't attend. Hearing in her absence 6 points 400 fine plus costs. However she was told when she rang that they would find her guilty in her absence but she could appeal. This info was wrong but when she challenged it and gave evidence proving that this was what she was told she won the right to appeal. Hence now at crown court

 

Thank you.

 

What should she expect on the day. She suffers from stress and anxiety and this is having an impact on her health

[deb66]

On all responses she has stated that she is not willingly withholding information regarding the drivers ID but honestly and truthfully between them they cannot be certain of who was driving

[unclebulgaria67]

On all responses she has stated that she is not willingly withholding information regarding the drivers ID but honestly and truthfully between them they cannot be certain of who was driving

 

Have they both checked work records, bank statements etc, to see whether there is anything to prove or disprove one of them was near that road at the time. A work record may place one of them elsewhere at the time. A bank or credit card statement may show a transaction at the time in a shop, which might help. Did either have an appointment somewhere on that day ?

 

Daughter and partner should have got a Solicitor or at least obtained formal legal advice. If she has legal cover on her car insurance, it might help her get advice or even pay for representation.

 

A Solicitor that deals with such issues would know the system and know what to do. Ideally your daughter needs to at least speak to one.

[deb66]

Thank you. I think she was under the impression that as she is telling the true it would be OK If only....

[deb66]

They have checked diaries calendars work records bank statements, Photographic evidence from police The area in which the offence took place is where either could be at that time. It fits in well with both her journey home and also his They both work very close to each other and often even share the journey and either or the other may drive on any particular day. Almost dependant on who walks out the front door first. We can't think of anything else that they haven't done to try and work out who the driver was She's getting rather upset cos she is telling the truth and neither of them have been in trouble before or even have a motoring offence of any kind

[Guest]

maybe a couple of poss issues in defence you mention?;

was it over 6 mths service of the NIP

reasonableness/'diligence' in trying to id the driver (see s172 road traffic act). though the fact that only 2 people are allowed to drive the car...

but, as suggested, legal advice is needed. 'legal aid' representation should be available at the crown court, subject to means testing and any contribution.

[deb66]

Offence occurred 1st week in June 2014. Request for driver details received 1st week October. I am going to go with her and see a duty solicitor if we can. She would not get legal aid and although she is lucky enough to be able to afford a fine she doesn't want the points and most certainly doesn't want to be criminalised when she is being absolutely honest and has done everything else possible.

[Guest]

its not over 6 mths then.

legal aid representation may be available at the crown court re an appeal, depending on means, interests of justice, outcome etc. your solicitor will tell you.

eg see 'appeal to the crown court' in the table https://www.gov.uk/guidance/criminal-legal-aid-means-testing

[deb66]

Thank you. I'll have a look now

[BazzaS]

No crown court. She was due to appear in magistrates court but due to being ill couldn't attend. Hearing in her absence 6 points 400 fine plus costs. However she was told when she rang that they would find her guilty in her absence but she could appeal. This info was wrong but when she challenged it and gave evidence proving that this was what she was told she won the right to appeal. Hence now at crown court

 

Thank you.

 

What should she expect on the day. She suffers from stress and anxiety and this is having an impact on her health

 

Is this a crown court appeal??

 

If so, is it an appeal against sentence, or appeal against conviction?

 

Is she legally represented?

[deb66]

Appeal against conviction at crown court

Not legally represented at the moment. Going to ring tomorrow

[BazzaS]

Appeal against conviction at crown court

Not legally represented at the moment. Going to ring tomorrow

 

Wow. She gets stressed & anxious, but is representing herself, in a Crown Court appeal against conviction, tomorrow?!

 

Some might consider that somewhat brave.

Risks (for case presentation) I can foresee are that she might not mount an effective defence if she gets stressed / anxious / flustered, and only a qualified legal adviser or her (representing herself) will have the right to be heard (so you can't represent her).

My understanding is that there won't be a duty solicitor available, since they are a feature of Magistrates rather than Crown Court, so it is all a bit last minute to be seeking legal advice.

 

The risks of a failed appeal are of significant costs.

She can't get any more than the 6 points already given, but they might increase her fine / charge her the costs of any failed appeal.

 

Can you help her prepare eg by making sure she has her notes of what her key points are, and knows to just go back to those if she is getting flustered?

 

Why has she gone to Crown Court? Did she try to get the Mag's to reconsider her case? (section 142 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980)

This option is mentioned on the form used to request the appeal to Crown Court from Magistrates ......

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/crimpr-part63-appealnotice.pdf

[deb66]

I spoke to a solicitor today. He advised that if she says truthfully that she did everything possible to ascertain the drivers ID and give details of what she did

 

Asked and looked at photographic evidence, phone records calendars diary work stuff etc and cannot truthfully that she knew who was driving then she should get listened to fairly and probably fine and points wiped or reduced

 

When she rang the magistrates court they said the appeal would be crown court

[deb66]

Other than being told appeal would go to crown court I don't know. Am not sure she knows

[deb66]

Can I not be her lay representative

[BazzaS]

Can I not be her lay representative

 

Para 61-66

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/judicial-college/ETBB_LiP+_finalised_.pdf

 

Has she already advised the court she wishes you to act for her? And what special circumstances is she planning on claiming?

 

Bear in mind that in a court with limited access to legal aid the lay representative is intended to "fill that gap".

Could she have been legally aided? If so, the court may be less willing to allow a lay representative.

[deb66]

Very very limited legal aid if any. Borderline. No she hasn't advised the court and no special circumstances that we are aware she could use

[BazzaS]

Very very limited legal aid if any. Borderline. No she hasn't advised the court and no special circumstances that we are aware she could use

 

Her anxiety / stress ?

Is this a lay opinion or a formal diagnosis by a medical practitioner?

[Guest]

deb

didn't the sol advise on any poss legal aid representation (barrister) at crown court?

[BazzaS]

What happened in court / what was the outcome?

[deb66]

Formal diagnosis

[BazzaS]

Formal diagnosis

 

I take it that is a reply to an earlier question?

However, was her appeal heard on Friday??

 

Can you tell us the outcome, and details?

[Conniff]

What happened in court deb66 ??