sacked by sainsbury's for gross misconduct- till theft - DID NOT DO IT - now DWF phonecalls

[accowl]

I am very worried

 

In October my partner was dismissed gross misconduct.

He was accused of company theft

stealing a large amount of money (he worked for Sainsburys)

 

 

he was investigated by his employer numerous interviews with a witness in the room taking notes.

CCTV was shown of him attending to his duties this is the point where he was accused of stealing

(May I add he did not do what was accused)

Eventually it was determined that they had to dismiss with immediate action gross misconduct.

 

At the time of dismissal they stated that police would be involved. No police have been in contact with my partner since his dismissal in October.

 

A couple of weeks ago he received a phone call from DWF

the lady gave her name and reason for calling was to notify him of a debt collection for the sum of £1400

she said his employer had contacted them to recover the money.

She even asked my partner on the phone if he did actually commit the theft which I think is extremely unprofessional and wrong.

 

 

Are they actually allowed to ask such a question to him over the phone?

He of course denied it as he did not commit the theft.

 

She stated that a police officer had been involved with the investigation which is completely false, he told her this.

We still have all his notes taking during the investigation with employer.

No mention of police officer in the notes my partner has never met said police officer.

At this point she became confused didn't know what to say.

 

 

She said that she would have to call his employer to speak as things weren't adding up.

She then added that he should expect a letter in the immediate future.

It's been about 3 weeks since this phone call and still no letter.

 

I have been worried to death it's been a hard time (Christmas) I have two children as well.

I am frightened to death of bailiffs turning up at my address.

 

Do you think we should contact the lady who called from DWF, still have her number.

 

Any advice, guidance appreciated.

[dx100uk]

you totally ignore DWF

they have NO LEGAL POWERS WHATSOEVER

and are NOT BAILIFFS

but a no powers DCA.

 

 

if he did not commit the thefts he needs to sue Sainsbury's. for wrongful dismissal.

 

 

dx

[leonmassey]

I would go see a solicitor immediately, surely you partner would have been given in writing his reason for being sacked.

 

this is theft and no clear evidence is provided in support then your partner may have grounds for wrongful dismissal.

 

In addition to this by then reporting this alleged fact to a third party it could be viewed that your partner may have suffered injury to his reputation and slandered.

 

As I said deffo go see a solicitor for full review.

[accowl]

Thank you for replies.

 

My partner has since been successful in getting another job he starts in January. The company he is now going to be working for contacted Sainsburys for a reference and a reference was given from them.

 

I told him to see a solicitor when he was first dismissed but he was unsure how to approach the matter and worried about costs.

 

Do you not think it would be too late to seek legal advice? I think he may be worried now that they could say why did you not do it sooner, the case might be hindered a little now due to the time frame.

[leonmassey]

You must submit your claim within 3 months from the date of dismissal to a tribunal so as you say they were sacked in October I would see a solicitor now.

 

 

Most solicitors offer the first 30min consultation free so you have nothing to lose.

 

 

It's good your partner has another job but personally I would not let their previous employer slander me

and certainly I would not stand them bringing a third party in to collect an in proven debt causing me and my family additional Stress.

[dx100uk]

:rockon:

[renegadeimp]

Inches a member of a union,he won't pay anything and for something like this, their legal team will be all over the company

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

While my esteemed colleagues deal with the potential unfair dismissal route, we also need to deal with DWF.

 

In this case, I would be writing one letter. In this letter, any liability will be denied and also telling them to remove your phone number(s) from their database with immediate effect otherwise a complaint of harassment will be forthcoming and if proved is now a criminal act.

 

Get a copy of the CCTV. If they have erased this, why? That is evidence. If the CCTV evidence shows only your partner then there should be no reason why a copy of it shouldn't be supplied either as pre action protocols or via a SAR.

 

Was the reference given a generic one? i.e was it just this person worked for us between xx and xx. Nothing about gross misconduct. How long did he work there for?

 

As for DWF, as mentioned above. Nothing they can do but chase. ONLY Sainsburys can take action via the courts.

 

As this was for a large amount, you have to ask why the police never got involved?

[renegadeimp]

Sound slike the police werent invlved as they had no real proof. Therefore it is very possible to get a claim for unfair dismissal in. If that happens, i bet theyll settle out of court fast, and try and get a gagging clause too.

[fkofilee]

Hi and welcome to CAG

While my esteemed colleagues deal with the potential unfair dismissal route, we also need to deal with DWF.

 

In this case, I would be writing one letter. In this letter, any liability will be denied and also telling them to remove your phone number(s) from their database with immediate effect otherwise a complaint of harassment will be forthcoming and if proved is now a criminal act.

 

Get a copy of the CCTV. If they have erased this, why? That is evidence. If the CCTV evidence shows only your partner then there should be no reason why a copy of it shouldn't be supplied either as pre action protocols or via a SAR.

 

Was the reference given a generic one? i.e was it just this person worked for us between xx and xx. Nothing about gross misconduct. How long did he work there for?

 

As for DWF, as mentioned above. Nothing they can do but chase. ONLY Sainsburys can take action via the courts.

 

As this was for a large amount, you have to ask why the police never got involved?

 

Oh yes! ... SF is right, You would have to question why Sainsburys wouldnt get involved and sent it to court...

Also make sure you get a copy of the CCTV. Dont hesitate to send Sainsburys a SAR request, I believe you should beable to force their hand if you specify you want the CCTV footage under the SAR Contents.

[ericsbrother]

your other half will have to pay the statutory £10 but they wont be able to refuse the request.

If they do try and stall a complaint should be sent to the ICO about their refusal to comply with the request.

The SAR should give you all of the personal data they hold,

 

 

not just the recording but do mention it specifically so you ahve a stick to beat them with if this continues.

[accowl]

Thank you for the replies.

 

We are going to call the solicitors tomorrow for some guidance hopefully we can be seen by them Asap.

 

My partner does not know if was a generic reference, he signed a form for his new job allowing them to check his previous employment all he knows is that it all went through well with the references.

 

Who does he contact for the CCTV footage, sainsburys themselves? Or will the solicitors take care of this?

[silverfox1961]

If you can afford solicitors fees then yes but it is something you can quite easily do yourself (or himself)

 

Any letter should be headed 'Data Subject Access Request'

 

For identity evidential purposes, include the details from a payslip (employee number, NI number if on there and anything else that can confirm ID) You don't want them to hold things up by them saying they need to confirm ID.

 

As well as all generic data they have you want specific data relating to this allegation. The CCTV and any paperwork involved with any investigation.

 

They have a total of 40 days to comply starting the day after they receive the letter which must be sent by traceable means. Signed for Delivery or Special Delivery is best as you can then track the letter to its destination. This should be to the store. If they have passed the file to head office, you will expect them to alert the Data Controller and not delay anything.

[ericsbrother]

start with the manager of the store worked at and make sure that the letter clearly states it is a Subject access Request under the Data Protection Act.

 

 

Without this they can ignore the letter as not being a valid request.

 

 

make sure a Cheque or PO for £10 is included, this is the statutory maximum charge for the data,

they may well sned the cheque back as it is an ex-employee asking but dont count on it.

[porrohman65]

Accowl,

I would like to know did Sainsbury follow any sort of procedures,

now I would assume all the super markets would do something similar, like my employer Asda

 

Every night, the till are counted up, and checked to see if there over or under, if the till is under by £20 or even £200.

The next working day, the supervisors are suppose to conduct interviews with all employees who have worked a shift on that till.

There can be upwards of 6 colleagues that have been on the till in one day, and the till is under £200,

the supervisor have to establish, if there has been some problem

 

Some problems, that might happen, the wrong amount of cash back was given out, £20 to much;

A reduction label has scanned at £500 instead of 5p; your £change£ for your till hasn't been given to you

 

Interviews are held with all colleagues, and we get asked if we had any issue on that day, no one gets accused of theft

 

We also have 3 triggers, which determine if further action is required,

so if you get red trigger, this would mean the store would do investigations, including checking cctv for that day

 

If this goes to court, and they try to settle out of court,

I think you should tell them, no you want them to appear in court,

you might as well take them to the cleaners;

 

 

if you go to settle out of court, there going to get of lightly, which they don't deserve

[Ganymede]

I am very worried

 

In October my partner was dismissed gross misconduct.

He was accused of company theft

stealing a large amount of money (he worked for Sainsburys)

 

 

he was investigated by his employer numerous interviews with a witness in the room taking notes.

CCTV was shown of him attending to his duties this is the point where he was accused of stealing

(May I add he did not do what was accused)

Eventually it was determined that they had to dismiss with immediate action gross misconduct.

 

At the time of dismissal they stated that police would be involved. No police have been in contact with my partner since his dismissal in October.

 

A couple of weeks ago he received a phone call from DWF

the lady gave her name and reason for calling was to notify him of a debt collection for the sum of £1400

she said his employer had contacted them to recover the money.

She even asked my partner on the phone if he did actually commit the theft which I think is extremely unprofessional and wrong.

 

 

Are they actually allowed to ask such a question to him over the phone?

He of course denied it as he did not commit the theft.

 

She stated that a police officer had been involved with the investigation which is completely false, he told her this.

We still have all his notes taking during the investigation with employer.

No mention of police officer in the notes my partner has never met said police officer.

At this point she became confused didn't know what to say.

 

 

She said that she would have to call his employer to speak as things weren't adding up.

She then added that he should expect a letter in the immediate future.

It's been about 3 weeks since this phone call and still no letter.

 

I have been worried to death it's been a hard time (Christmas) I have two children as well.

I am frightened to death of bailiffs turning up at my address.

 

Do you think we should contact the lady who called from DWF, still have her number.

 

Any advice, guidance appreciated.

 

Hi,

 

Something doesn't add up here. What evidence did Sainsbury's have of the alleged theft?

 

What did the CCTV show?!

 

What did your partner say in all these interviews?

[Travis.T]

re post 15...

 

I also work for this company and our store follow procedures to the letter in cases like this..

 

An investigation starts the ball rolling...followed by an immediate suspension.

 

An invitation is sent out by post for a disciplinary, where a police officer or a member of profit protection is present

.It may be the store manager OR in most cases like this an independent manager from another store..

ALL the evidence is explained / shown to you at this time...

and cctv is their biggest evidence as is the till counts etc..

 

To summarise

This STINKS and as advised in other posts union legal team or solicitor

[Sidewinder]

Sound slike the police werent invlved as they had no real proof. Therefore it is very possible to get a claim for unfair dismissal in. If that happens, i bet theyll settle out of court fast, and try and get a gagging clause too.

 

Possible, but it is actually incredibly difficult to get over the primary hurdle at a Tribunal. 'Did the employer have a reasonable belief of guilt, founded on a reasonable investigation? If so, was dismissal a reasonable sanction in the circumstances?'

 

I was involved in an Unfair Dismissal claim for a friend. He was alleged to have stolen a small amount of money which later reappeared. The Police were not involved. CCTV was destroyed before the outcome of the disciplinary process, and was not even reviewed by the employer, but footage from a separate camera WAS retained to prove innocence of another employee. Witness statements contradicted other witness statements. There was no proof of guilt whatsoever.

 

The Tribunal found that dismissal was justified. The Judge found that destruction of the CCTV evidence was reasonable as it was in line with company policy to delete after 14 days and didn't cover the area where the theft occurred (even though it might have proved innocence as it would show the employee elsewhere). The Judge also found that although mistakes were made in the initial investigation these were corrected on appeal (witnesses were re-interviewed and changed their statements). He found that the investigation was sufficiently thorough that the employer was entitled to believe that there was an irreversible breakdown of trust and it was reasonable to dismiss, based on the belief that the employee was guilty of theft. No reasonable employer would have found differently and dismissal was a reasonable response in the circumstances.

 

Just because you KNOW that you are innocent, that doesn't mean that the employer cannot show that their response was reasonable in the circumstances - proof isn't necessary, just the belief that you were guilty.

 

Sainsburys may well be a company that would settle out of court if pushed, but if they feel they have right on their side and are prepared to dig their heels in, you would have to have a compelling case to be able to fight them. Even the risk of adverse publicity may not be enough to make them wary of court. The case above was against a major high street company - didn't make a difference.

 

That isn't to say don't fight - on the contrary you should push it as far as possible as it stinks. Just don't think that a lack of CCTV evidence is a slam dunk for a successful Tribunal claim

 

But definitely don't pay DWF!

[Ell-enn]

Check your house insurance - you may have legal cover (lots of policies have this built in) , if so ring them and see if they will put you in touch with a solicitor to give you advice for free.

[Travis.T]

spot on sidewinder..

 

"The Tribunal found that dismissal was justified. The Judge found that destruction of the CCTV evidence was reasonable as it was in line with company policy to delete after 14 days"

 

another hurdle they hide behind is data protection.

[Sidewinder]

Any update to this from the OP?

[accowl]

He has received 3 letters from DWF the latest saying that if payment is not made in 7 days then he will have to go to court, something about high court and then bailiffs.

 

The lady who originally called has been leaving voicemails urging him to get in contact to discuss payment. He blocked her number but still the voicemails keep coming through.

[dx100uk]

go read the letter PROPERLY

it does NOT say WILL anywhere

 

 

dx

[silverfox1961]

I agree with DX here. Very rarely do these letters say 'Will' but they use words that would appear to say just that. While DWF are solicitors they can take no action unless instructed by Sainsburys

 

The letters demand compensation for security costs yet the 'Oxford case' stated that security costs cannot be claimed for as the staff get paid irrespective of whether they apprehend anyone or not.

 

There is the difference between shoplifting and staff theft but as has been stated here, 'didn't do it' so the onus would be on the retailer to prove the case before anything could be claimed.

 

Are you able to post up redacted copies of those letter? If so, can you please upload in pdf format and make sure ALL identifying features are obscured. I wouldn't be surprised if DWF aren't aware of this thread as companies like this will have a trawl around the net looking for things like this. Nothing to worry about though.

[accowl]

Yes I can do that

 

Update today voicemail left by Lady from DWF in the voicemail she said I'm ringing as a courtesy call to let you know that on the 7th of March we will be taking litigation proceedings on the matter in question if you don't call us to make an amicable arrangement to pay by Thursday of this week.