NHS - £100 million in debt - why ??

[citizenB]

Having just seen the news, I see the NHS is facing a financial crisis - approaching £100 million of debt. Despite ring fenced monies and extra funding for extra nurses/doctors/GPs, etc

 

Why is this ??

 

Well for a start - look at the salaries some of the top guys are earning ?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3206191/Scandal-60-fat-cat-NHS-hospital-bosses-took-home-Prime-Minister-year-despite-trusts-plunging-financial-crisis.html

 

Despite these earnings, they are running their trusts/hospitals into the ground with no accountability.

 

Why are we recruiting from overseas and using agency staff ?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35148920

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35062121

 

In Scotland, apparently 17,000 patients missed at least 5 appointments !

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35141459

[san_d]

It is a known fact of economics that policies of austerity produce more debt than they should reduce. In other words you can choose between high debt and social services and high debt and no services.

[unclebulgaria67]

The NHS is treating a record number of people, therefore the demand is more than the increased funding provided. The health department will meet the extra cost, but only after their accounts have been assessed to see what measures can be taken.

 

NHS wages including executives are still less than found in the US.

[Nystagmite]

My first thought was wages.

 

We're also living longer, therefore, we generally cost the NHS more with the conditions we have. I know that with one of the conditions a relatives baby has, he may not have survived years ago. He's constantly (and probably will be for the rest of his life) in and out of hospital.

[sillygirl1]

It is the way the accounting is done - this is why they are always showing a loss. A lot of expenditure is done in the first three months of the financial year - and this expenditure is 'factored in' for subsequent financial quarters. This 'forecast expenditure' then shows that the Trust is going to loose money rapidly when often it is not the case.

 

As for wages, I will provide a link to the national payments for staff. NHS administrators get very low pay indeed as they are seen as 'non essential' staff. Having a nurse who is not trained nor interested in doing a rota is seen as 'better value', as is junior nurses acting as ward reception staff.

 

There is a lot of bad reporting on situations in the NHS in the national press - depending on the political bias of the people who own/run the particular newspaper.

 

If the NHS stopped going down the road of 'we need to prevent ailments by giving you drugs' they would save a fortune in GP time, drugs bills, and ultimately the health of the population would increase by other 'non-medical interventional' means.

[goodatresearch]

Nurses are trained and most work rotas (except those in clinics who are usually on set hours). I don't know any nurses working merely as reception staff ( unless you mean those who admit patients and take essential medical information).

[Sali]

It is a known fact of economics that policies of austerity produce more debt than they should reduce. In other words you can choose between high debt and social services and high debt and no services.

 

A view in some quarters maybe, but not a fact.

 

I'm sure the NHS is in debt because of many of the points already made. Who knows whether this hasn't been the case since its inception. One thing I'd like to see is NHS-trained doctors (and nurses) being 'locked in' to the service for a set period after qualifying. Draconian but necessary I feel. However, I'd also like to see more medics trained in this country.

[citizenB]

A view in some quarters maybe, but not a fact.

 

I'm sure the NHS is in debt because of many of the points already made. Who knows whether this hasn't been the case since its inception. One thing I'd like to see is NHS-trained doctors (and nurses) being 'locked in' to the service for a set period after qualifying. Draconian but necessary I feel. However, I'd also like to see more medics trained in this country.

 

If their student fees were paid by the NHS/Government, then yes I would agree with this. But not when they are having to pay for their own training ?

[Sali]

Wow, you are fast with your keystrokes CitzenB. My understanding is that it DOES cost the taxpayer a significant amount to train a doctor.

[citizenB]

I will ask my grand-daughter what, if any funding she received for her training. I am pretty certain that there was none.

[citizenB]

Ok, my apologies - the course of 3 years was paid for. However she didn't qualify for the means tested bursary - although she wasn't living with her parents, they still took their income into account !! So she worked evenings and weekends to support herself - pay rent, etc.

 

This was 8 years ago.

[Sali]

Lots of students at uni have to work whilst they study and (should) eventually pay back their loan when they are earning enough. I have no axe to grind with medical students receiving bursaries, but there should be pay-back for the taxpayers' investment in them.

[citizenB]

https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2015-16

 

These are the latest pay bands for Nurses.

 

If you want Nurses and Doctors to be tied into the NHS to repay any loans then they should at least be paid a decent salary.

[goodatresearch]

Wow. Would you like to bring back slavery and indentured servitude as well. If they decided yo pack it in before this lock in period, prison? Sent to the colonies? Hold on wrong century.

 

 

 

A view in some quarters maybe, but not a fact.

 

I'm sure the NHS is in debt because of many of the points already made. Who knows whether this hasn't been the case since its inception. One thing I'd like to see is NHS-trained doctors (and nurses) being 'locked in' to the service for a set period after qualifying. Draconian but necessary I feel. However, I'd also like to see more medics trained in this country.

[goodatresearch]

I've argued with views like yours for years. When I was nursing, you didn't pay for your training via loans but I worked over 40 hours per week on the wards and it was argued we should not receive a wage because of this free training because we should be dedicated otherwise in the wrong job. Things have changed, but some members of the general public still think that NHS staff belong body and soul to the NHS. No wonder so many are leaving the profession (as I did) or going abroad. The general public are falling for the propaganda and will finish up with a privatised health service and serve (some off them) right. Stand up for NHS staff and don't fall for this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of students at uni have to work whilst they study and (should) eventually pay back their loan when they are earning enough. I have no axe to grind with medical students receiving bursaries, but there should be pay-back for the taxpayers' investment in them.

[goodatresearch]

You want to see medics trained in this country but want to see these same medics tied to draconian contracts (your own words) which actually discourage home trained candidates? Good luck to being treated by foreign trained medics, most of which are luckily very, very good and very welcome, but others who have dubious records which are not being checked.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, you are fast with your keystrokes CitzenB. My understanding is that it DOES cost the taxpayer a significant amount to train a doctor.

[king12345]

Here's a recent story highlight one of the many wasteful ways of NHS.

I have a very dodgy knee that I have managed for over 20 years through all sorts of therapies, but in the past 18 months has gone totally bananas.

Most days I'm limping and every week I have a couple of days that I have to take strong painkillers.

So being diligent and having private health insurance I had an mri done, sessions with a very good physiotherapist and recently seen a specialist who told me my only option is an operation, having exhausted all other avenues.

This op costs £15k and is not covered by health insurance, so I went to my gp to be referred and she dropped the bomb: I have to have mri, physio for 6 months and then be referred to a specialist.

I argued that they had all of that in their record , but she said that private treatment, scans and tests are not accepted by NHS and the same procedures must be repeated.

How much is this costing???

It doesn't make sense.

[goodatresearch]

No it doesn't make sense at all. I suppose they could argue that youve been misdiagnosed to up your private premiums but that isn't an excuse. Can't you insist on copies of these reports and disclose them to the NHS consultant?

[king12345]

No it doesn't make sense at all. I suppose they could argue that youve been misdiagnosed to up your private premiums but that isn't an excuse. Can't you insist on copies of these reports and disclose them to the NHS consultant?

 

I have all paperwork, the trouble is that before I can see an nhs consultant I will have to do another mri and 6 months of physio.

Waste of money (and time)

[goodatresearch]

Change your doctor, not all work this way.

 

 

I have all paperwork, the trouble is that before I can see an nhs consultant I will have to do another mri and 6 months of physio.

Waste of money (and time)

[Sali]

Wow. Would you like to bring back slavery and indentured servitude as well. If they decided yo pack it in before this lock in period, prison? Sent to the colonies? Hold on wrong century.

 

Rather dramatic goodatresearch, but it's a new year and good to see somebody passionate about a cause.

 

Firstly, I assume nobody forced you into your profession. Press-ganging, along with slavery and indentured servitude, have long gone. I also doubt yours was an altruistic choice. Like the rest of us you will have chosen your career because it interested you/by accident/it paid the mortgage/your career's advisor suggested it. Who knows?

 

My suggestion was that doctors (mainly) and nurses (maybe) should, if they have received their training free courtesy of the taxpayer, be locked into working for the NHS for a set period as recompense - but not for life. That would be cruel. How can it be right for taxpayers to fund their training only for the individuals on qualifying to quit to work in a private or foreign hospital? How can staffing and new training needs be managed in these circumstances? I would rather a financial penalty (depending on the reasons) for not fulfilling the contract, rather than prison or sending them to the colonies, which is seen as a reward rather than a punishment these days.

 

I have said in other posts that I would like to see more doctors and nurses trained in this country. I also share your concern about failure to complete comprehensive checks on foreign medics.

 

The NHS is not some sacred cow that should never be criticised.

[Nystagmite]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

I'm sure if you do training through a company (in general, I'm sure different companies have different rules) you have to work for them for a certain amount of years. I don't see why NHS funded students should be any different tbh.

[Sali]

Certainly, but most employers will offer training as a way of ensuring you stay with the company.

[goodatresearch]

Actually I did go in to nursing to help people. Training was different then, no bursery and most of the time spent on the wards working with only short periods in the class room. The pay was extremely low, hours long and working conditions awful. When there was any hint of union action to improve our lot we had to put up with the "you chose the job, you shouldn't be in it for the money" brigade. As a consequence, nurses left the profession or went abroad in droves. How history repeats itself.

 

Anyway, slightly off topic, however my experience is still relevant. Like it or not, if the powers that be continue with their negative propaganda against doctors and hospital front line staff and successfully continue to tinker with pay, hours, training etc, then people will continue to leave and hospitals will be staffed by nurses and doctors with dubious qualifications. Look, my partner is one of those front line staff and he says morale is so low, many of his colleagues are leaving the profession completely or going abroad. Most have been trained a few years, so any lock in wouldn't work in the long run. Yes, yes I know, other employers lock employees for a set time and there are many people in low paid jobs working shifts, but should this really be a race to the bottom?

 

 

 

Rather dramatic goodatresearch, but it's a new year and good to see somebody passionate about a cause.

 

Firstly, I assume nobody forced you into your profession. Press-ganging, along with slavery and indentured servitude, have long gone. I also doubt yours was an altruistic choice. Like the rest of us you will have chosen your career because it interested you/by accident/it paid the mortgage/your career's advisor suggested it. Who knows?

 

My suggestion was that doctors (mainly) and nurses (maybe) should, if they have received their training free courtesy of the taxpayer, be locked into working for the NHS for a set period as recompense - but not for life. That would be cruel. How can it be right for taxpayers to fund their training only for the individuals on qualifying to quit to work in a private or foreign hospital? How can staffing and new training needs be managed in these circumstances? I would rather a financial penalty (depending on the reasons) for not fulfilling the contract, rather than prison or sending them to the colonies, which is seen as a reward rather than a punishment these days.

 

I have said in other posts that I would like to see more doctors and nurses trained in this country. I also share your concern about failure to complete comprehensive checks on foreign medics.

 

The NHS is not some sacred cow that should never be criticised.

[Sali]

Yes, we are off-topic, but I do (believe it or not) like to hear the views of others.

 

I have relatives who have/do work in the NHS. One of them probably trained at around the same time as you. She went into the profession, brainwashed into it by her mother, (from a foetus), so I'm told. However, her memories of pay and working conditions were more positive. Maybe nostalgia takes off the hard edges sometimes.

 

I don't think the way to improve the nurses' lot is to suggest (threaten?) that they will leave in their droves. Quite frankly, if a worker is so jaded, unhappy and dissatisfied, I would be encouraging them to leave, because I cannot help but think that such a mindset would not be good for business or anyone around them - and in a hospital environment that would be the patients.

 

I understand it is a topsy-turvy world: It makes no sense to me either that some jobs and professions which contribute more to society are not so well paid - and these are usually roles occupied mainly by women. I can see that political meddling is detrimental. Leadership (although highly paid) appears to be poor.

 

My own opinions of the NHS are not formed through any propaganda I've been fed, but by actual experience. Not good.