High court enforcement, CCJ paid

[Peterbard]

If you pay within 28 days you can get the judgement removed from your credit file of course.

I can find no legislation which says a creditor cannot transfer up a judgement even if there is a stipulated pay by date. Perhaps the transferring up is not regarded as part of the enforcment process, until the writ is issued.

[HCEOs]

I would be grateful if you could source me the relevant CPR/Legislation on that point HCEO.

 

CPR 40.7 (1) A judgment or order takes effect from the day when it is given or made, or such later date as the court may specify.

 

Therefore if the order states 'forthwith' then this means it is payable immediately. However, this would again apply to defended claims as it will be a Judge that states the 'forthwith' in the order.

[HCEOs]

If you pay within 28 days you can get the judgement removed from your credit file of course.

I can find no legislation which says a creditor cannot transfer up a judgement even if there is a stipulated pay by date. Perhaps the transferring up is not regarded as part of the enforcment process, until the writ is issued.

 

A judgment cannot be transferred up unless the sums are due and payable.

[Confus3me]

As already stated most judgments are payable immediately (forthwith).

 

The £111.75 is the execution costs which are £60 court fee for the Writ and £51.75 fee for the instructing solicitor. Some new and inexperienced HCEOs do not understand the £51.75 is only applicable by a solicitor and have been offering it to all creditors in an attempt to have a commercial advantage. If charged correctly, this fee will all be owed.

 

If you paid after the Notice of Enforcement was issued you will also owe the Compliance Stage fee.

 

If you paid after the first visit then you will owe the Enforcement Stage 1 fee and dependant upon what else has happened in the case you may also owe Enforcement Stage 2 fee.

 

Who are the HCEO company?

 

I paid the CCJ a amount only during compliance stage.

Due to the outstanding £111.75 the creditor told the HCE company to continue action to recover (something I was not aware about).

 

 

I have no objection with paying £90 to HCEO company and have already paid the creditor an additional £150 to cover the £111.75 and any interest they wanted to charge.

 

What concerns me mostly is that the HCE company is asking for another £822 for stage 1 and 2

as they visited after I thought this matter was closed.

 

 

For the record I am not saying the HCE company has not fulfilled their obligations and I fully accept they sent me the appropriate paperwork at the appropriate time.

 

The HCE company is High court enforcement group limited

 

@Andy no problem, I completely see how it is relevant.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Andy,

you need to show where this 28 days grace period has come from.

 

 

I have just looked at 3 money orders and none stipulate anything about twenty eight days.

 

You must pay xxxxxx forthwith is on there.

 

If you don't comply then your goods may be taken and sold is on there.

 

If you pay in full in one month you can ask the cancel the entry on the register.

 

That is it.

[HCEOs]

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Can I ask why you did not pay at the Compliance Stage before they visited?

[AndyOrch]

Andy,

you need to show where this 28 days grace period has come from.

 

 

I have just looked at 3 money orders and none stipulate anything about twenty eight days.

 

You must pay xxxxxx forthwith is on there.

 

If you don't comply then your goods may be taken and sold is on there.

 

If you pay in full in one month you can ask the cancel the entry on the register.

 

That is it.

 

A lot of the judgments vary in the Financial Legal Issues forums...some state a date by which as stated can vary between 16 and 28 days...some state forthwith with no date..this can be on default judgments and defended judgments.

 

Enforcement of a judgment is not automatic.

 

A judgment debt has to be paid within a month of the date of judgment unless the court has made a specific Order that it should be paid by instalments.

 

Enforcement is used where the judgment debtor has failed to pay the judgment debt or failed to pay any instalment due under it.

 

The judgment creditor chooses which method or methods are most appropriate to their particular circumstances.

 

Enforcement applies equally to Judgments and those Court Orders that are able to be enforced.

 

https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/post-judgment-enforcement.aspx

[HCEOs]

A lot of the judgments vary in the Financial Legal Issues forums...some state a date by which as stated can vary between 16 and 28 days...some state forthwith with no date..this can be on default judgments and defended judgments.

 

Enforcement of a judgment is not automatic.

 

A judgment debt has to be paid within a month of the date of judgment unless the court has made a specific Order that it should be paid by instalments.

 

Enforcement is used where the judgment debtor has failed to pay the judgment debt or failed to pay any instalment due under it.

 

The judgment creditor chooses which method or methods are most appropriate to their particular circumstances.

 

Enforcement applies equally to Judgments and those Court Orders that are able to be enforced.

 

https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/post-judgment-enforcement.aspx

 

I really wouldn't rely on that site for your info. It was only a week ago that it was full of all sorts of errors regarding HCEOs.

[HCEOs]

are the fees appropriate for the outstanding balance of £111.75 or are they entitled to work on the original balance of £3,070.46 despite the majority being paid?.

 

The fees should be charged on the 'sums to be recovered'. If at that stage it was only the £111.75 then the fees would not incur the percentage element which is 7.5% of the debt above £1000.

[Confus3me]

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Can I ask why you did not pay at the Compliance Stage before they visited?

 

Of course. I didn't receive it,

as I said I am sure they sent it so I can't hold them responsible for that.

 

 

Prior to their visit they were made aware by the creditor I had paid the CCJ amount

and the creditor instructed them to carry on with the collection.

 

 

For me I paid the amount I

believed due at the time, could/should the creditor have acted more reasonably and halted proceedings with the HCE

at that stage with the £111.75 owing?

 

 

Is there not a duty of reasonable behaviour on the part of the creditor in this case even if the law says (and it is not clear to me still if it does)

 

 

I still owe the money under the high court writ?

 

 

Further once I was made aware of the additionally money the creditor wanted

 

 

I paid that directly to them (primarily as the HCE company bill has now ballooned to over £900)

[Confus3me]

The fees should be charged on the 'sums to be recovered'. If at that stage it was only the £111.75 then the fees would not incur the percentage element which is 7.5% of the debt above £1000.

 

Thanks for that (and your other replies). If they have additionally charged me interest on the visit paperwork that is based on the original debt amount rather than the amount remaining would that invalidate their paperwork by any stroke of good fortune?

[ploddertom]

 

But that is just the point of concern and discussion here HCEOs ...even forthwith judgments are allowed a grace of 28 days and are not submitted to the Trust Registry until after that period.....so why are they being allowed to transfer it up to HC and execute the judgment prematurely ?

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

Think you may find that Registry Trust enter the details as soon as they are notified by the list the Courts provide which may of course be only 24/48 hours after Judgment is made. Giveaway is when some of the "chasers" make contact to say they can help provide the means to pay enabling payment within the 1 month limit when it can then be removed.

Removing judgments: paying within a month

 

If you pay your county court judgment in full within one month of the judgment date, it will be removed from the register. - taken from Registry Trust Online

[Peterbard]

The issue I am concerned with, is that the writ appears to have been issued to recover only a dispersement/fee, as the judgement debt had already been paid.

 

This is not allowable under the TCE, as the recovery was not under an enforcment power.

It is the writ which enables section 62 of the act and this could not be issued in any case other than on a judgement(which was setted), not fees due after the judgement and before the enforcement commenced.

[Confus3me]

The issue I am concerned with, is that the writ appears to have been issued to recover only a dispersement/fee, as the judgement debt had already been paid.

 

This is not allowable under the TCE, as the recovery was not under an enforcment power.

It is the writ which enables section 62 of the act and this could not be issued in any case other than on a judgement(which was setted), not fees due after the judgement and before the enforcement commenced.

 

They applied for the writ prior to the judgement being paid, writ was issued on 25-Nov I paid judgement debt on 2-Dec

[Peterbard]

Ah OK. unfortunate.

[wonkeydonkey]

I think you would be wise to send an SAR (subject access request) to HCE. This will enable you to follow the actions the creditor took both prior and subsequent to the CCJ and writ.. Once you have the full picture it may offer a possibility to seek set aside of the writ.

 

I also had a creditor who was a bit to quick off the mark in instructing Shergroup to enforce a writ almost immediately after judgment. The Judge took a very dim view of their actions and not only was the judgment set aside the creditor ended up with a writ being issued against them for costs both County Court and a RCJ Master had awarded to me!!!.

[AndyOrch]

I really wouldn't rely on that site for your info. It was only a week ago that it was full of all sorts of errors regarding HCEOs.

 

I dont rely on any forums for any of my information...it was purely an example generally available on numerous webs in response to GrumpyToSayTheLeast post of asking where it states the grace period and an example of time allowed to pay.

[Peterbard]

I think you would be wise to send an SAR (subject access request) to HCE. This will enable you to follow the actions the creditor took both prior and subsequent to the CCJ and writ.. Once you have the full picture it may offer a possibility to seek set aside of the writ.

 

I also had a creditor who was a bit to quick off the mark in instructing Shergroup to enforce a writ almost immediately after judgment. The Judge took a very dim view of their actions and not only was the judgment set aside the creditor ended up with a writ being issued against them for costs both County Court and a RCJ Master had awarded to me!!!.

 

I think that tis is a very good idea.

[AndyOrch]

" Quote Originally Posted by HCEOs View Post

Hi Andy, Forthwith judgments are just that. There is no 28 days grace at present."

I would be grateful if you could source me the relevant CPR/Legislation on that point HCEO.

 

Apologies Confus3me for this Hijack on your thread but this point is very relevant to your thread

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

CPR 40.7 (1) A judgment or order takes effect from the day when it is given or made, or such later date as the court may specify.

 

Therefore if the order states 'forthwith' then this means it is payable immediately. However, this would again apply to defended claims as it will be a Judge that states the 'forthwith' in the order.

 

CPR 40.7(1) is with regards to when a judgment takes effect from ..not with regards to payment...

 

But how about......

 

Time for complying with a judgment or order

 

CPR 40.11 A party must comply with a judgment or order for the payment of an amount of money (including costs) within 14 days of the date of the judgment or order, unless –

 

(a) the judgment or order specifies a different date for compliance (including specifying payment by instalments);

(b) any of these Rules specifies a different date for compliance; or

© the court has stayed the proceedings or judgment.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Peterbard]

Yes Andy and given this, how does this sit with the earlier statement that judgements cannot be taken up oto he high court until they are due and payable.

Does this then mean that as a general rule they cannot be transfered witnhin 14 days of judgement ?

[AndyOrch]

Well thats what the CPR states DB...we are just seeking clarity......if you have 14 days grace then in practice the judgment should not be executed...Its not the HCEO,s fault here they are being instructed by the Judgment Claimant...prematurely in my opinion.

 

Its not something that I normally get involved in ..as execution of this nature are quite rare in Consumer Regulated Agreement Judgments...I have seen and dealt with 100s of judgments which normally progress to AoE or Charging Order type execution.

 

I may split this thread to the Discussion forum shortly as its unfair on the original poster to hijack his thread in this way.....but this does require further discussion.

[Peterbard]

Yes Andy as am I. It is why I asked the question.

 

As far as enforcment is concerned it is an important point.

If the enforcment is transferred up before they are entitled to do so the enforcment itself may be void, but it needs , as you say clarification.I have looked at a number of HCEO sites and they all say that the debt can be transferred up as soon as the creditor obtained a judgement. The application for the writ, is a different action then the application to the court to transfer up, hence my other question.(although it can be combined)

 

The county court act says this

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/28/section/85

 

85 Execution of judgments or orders for payment of money.

 

(1)[F1Subject to article 8 of the High Court and County Courts Jurisdiction Order 1991,]any sum of money payable under a judgment or order of a county court may be recovered, in case of default or failure of payment, forthwith or at the time or times and in the manner thereby directed, by execution against the goods of the party against whom the judgement or order was obtained.

 

There seems to be alternative views , and to be honest I have not had enough time to reconcile them , perhaps a discussion thread would be the thing.

[AndyOrch]

Will split the thread shortly

[Confus3me]

Will split the thread shortly

 

 

Could I very respectfully ask you don't split please? Unless I'm mistaken I think this could be potentially very relevant to my situation. Fully understand if you'd prefer to split though

[AndyOrch]

Could I very respectfully ask you don't split please? Unless I'm mistaken I think this could be potentially very relevant to my situation. Fully understand if you'd prefer to split though

 

Your wish is my command....as long as you are content with the advise offered so far and happy for the thread to continue in its current form.

 

Regards

 

Andy