Thinking of trying for a court order for SAR

[nannamoon1]

I requested the SAR via email, and was told I had to send the £10 once they had collated all the records and NOT before as they did not know how much the cost would be, either £10 or £50

 

I did offer to send the payment as soon as they acknowledged mt request via email an the identification process but they declined.

 

I have sent the £10 today Special Delivery as soon as I put the phone down from talking to them, I know what they are like with phrase "we have not received your payment"

[martin2006]

ahh i see, this would be because any manually held records, as opposed to electronically held records can incur a maximum £50 fee to process this,

 

see here: http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2635.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=160

 

my apologies, my previous post was not correct

[nannamoon1]

ahh i see, this would be because any manually held records, as opposed to electronically held records can incur a maximum £50 fee to process this,

 

see here: http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2635.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=160

 

my apologies, my previous post was not correct

 

No worries, because no one bothered to contact me, and I happened to chase them up today they will not get the records to me by the 40 days, also do I challenge whether the questionnaires are going to be included in the records or wait and see what I receive?

[martin2006]

Did you specifically ask for them? With NHS records it can depend on the sensitivity of whats in there, check the link above

[nannamoon1]

Did you specifically ask for them? With NHS records it can depend on the sensitivity of whats in there, check the link above

 

These questionnaires are so basic they are sent from consultant to school and are tick box's there is nothing sensitive to be with held

 

The consultant is saying what we are saying about our son does not match what he is doing at school from looking at the questionnaires, however the school SENCO whom we have a good relationship with has said he has spoen tot the consultant many times and what we are saying is what the school are saying.

 

Hence the reason for my SAR request, as someone is not being truthful, and my gut feeling is its the consultant as she is the one reluctant to release the questionnaires. So do I ask now are they included or wait and see what arrives?

[Guest]

related thread? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?453637-NHS-Refuse-Information-on-SAR

[martin2006]

wait and see what comes back

[stevemLS]

The 40 day limit does not start until the fee has been received by the data controller.

 

You may not have paid the appropriate fee if they determine that a higher fee is payable.

[nannamoon1]

UPDATE

 

We have finally received the information from our SAR request, they missed the 40 day deadline, we sent a reminder and received the information a week later.

 

I have some questions and would be grateful for some help

 

Information is missing, however after contacting the ICO it appears I can request this information but the ICO has no powers to make the NHS provide the information, nor do they have the powers to enforce the NHS to allow the ICO to see the information that they have with held to make a decision if it is detrimental to our son or us as a family.

 

So theatrically, the ICO have no real powers at all, when the NHS breached the 40 the ICO told us to send them a reminder and give them another 14 days, what is the point of the 40 days if they are allowed another 14.

 

The only way we would be able to get the information is to take the NHS to court where the Judge will decide if we can have the information and the NHS will have to provide the information for the Jude to decide.

 

We requested some questionnaires that we have received, this is super evidence that a professional has been lying in the fact she has been telling us one thing (we have email proof) and the consultant something else.

 

When we questioned the profession in question, she has gone mad, denying everything, (we have proof with emails) and that she did not give her permission and has not seen these particular records.

 

This proves totally that the diagnosis was premeditated before we went into the psychiatrists appointment.

 

Apparently, she is going to speak with her boss this week and see how we can move forward (there is no moving forward I want you off the case) and get back to us this week.

 

My questions are:

 

What can I do legally if anything at all?

 

The data was printed off on October 12th we received it on Thursday but there has been correspondenc since which we have not received, should we have received the data up to date?

 

We have been told by the NHS that the data is pulled and then it goes to each person to get their authorisation to release the information, is that correct? so for example if 20 professionals were involved then each piece of data would go to that particular professional to go through frist before saying the information can be released or not, (its detrimental in their eyes)

 

There is information in the documents that we received that are untruthful and the professional has said it was taken in the wrong context when we questioned her, she said this been mis-interprted by the consultant (these notes are typed up from phones calls between this professional and the consultant).

 

We asked for an email with a report to be emailed to a professional prior to the appointment, it appears this was never done, yet we have an email confirming that she had done this. (again we know why she did not forward the information on)

 

We have not done anything at the moment as we are still digesting all the information and cross referencing the lies.

[martin2006]

Hi nannamoon,

What is your ultimate goal here, having requested and at least partially received the information you wanted from the NHS, what are you looking to achieve at the end of the day?

[nannamoon1]

Hi nannamoon,

What is your ultimate goal here, having requested and at least partially received the information you wanted from the NHS, what are you looking to achieve at the end of the day?

 

Admit liability to start with, however as many similar threads on here it does not appear to be rare that the NHS can conduct themselves in this manor and get away with it.

 

I can 100% prove the diagnosis was premeditated prior to entering the room, therefore a fair assessment has not been conducted

 

Its not only this case where the "said professional" has lied and then tried to back track, she has been doing it to our sons school too and when questioned tries to back track.

 

Is it worth pursuing the rest of the information missing from the records?

[martin2006]

If your intention is to proceed to court then you need all the information from them, im not 100% certain if there is any difference when dealing with the NHS with regards to SAR's as in whether they are also legally obliged to disclose all information.

I think you should now write back asking that they send whatever info you feel has been omitted with a deadline of say 14 days prior to escalating to the ICO, or if that proves fruitless, then court action may be required to get them to release the info to you.

 

If you manage to get them to admit liability, where does it go after that?

[nannamoon1]

If your intention is to proceed to court then you need all the information from them, im not 100% certain if there is any difference when dealing with the NHS with regards to SAR's as in whether they are also legally obliged to disclose all information.

I think you should now write back asking that they send whatever info you feel has been omitted with a deadline of say 14 days prior to escalating to the ICO, or if that proves fruitless, then court action may be required to get them to release the info to you.

 

If you manage to get them to admit liability, where does it go after that?

 

The ICO are not as powerful as you would suspect, the NHS appear to be being difficult in many ways along with another professional who does not work for the NHS, but she works for a professional body.

 

I have already been in talks with the ICO and whilst I can do what you have suggested above write back and give them 14 days bla bla I can then pursue to the ICO, BUT the ICO have NO powers to force ANYONE to show them all of the data including the missing Data, NHS do not have to tell the ICO why they are with holding either.

 

Reading on some other threads going to court, the % of getting the information is quite low.

 

I feel very strongly that we have been I suppose "stitched up" and I can prove this by cross referencing emails to letters and the data I received despite some missing.

 

I feel that the NHS get away with performing the way they do because they know they can get away with it.

 

If I can get them to admit liability then It will be something, whether I would pursue for compensation or not I am not entirely sure at this stage.

 

Along the way they breached the DPA 3 times and I did complain and have a prejudice letter admitting liability and how very sorry they were.

 

The DPA works on the same principle for the NSH as it does for anyone. There is not really any Data that would could harm or distress that they should not release, they are just being difficult, and trying to cover their errors.

 

I have questioned the professional body that does not work for the NHS and she has said she needs to speak with her boss and get back to us by the end of the week, and she denied everything (however I do have proof which she has forgot via emails she is lying) She has asked what am I going to do with the information meaning the data, I ignored the question.

[martin2006]

Ok you have said you want them to "admit liability for a start". i have asked where you are going with this so that the site can help you achieve your goal. if you achieve getting them to admit liability, what next or is that your only goal?

[nannamoon1]

Ok you have said you want them to "admit liability for a start". i have asked where you are going with this so that the site can help you achieve your goal. if you achieve getting them to admit liability, what next or is that your only goal?

 

I have asked questions above and hopefully someone can help me decide what I want to do IF I get them to accept liability.

 

My questions are above that I am going to struggle with a) obtaining the rest of the information, even going to court, and further more the professional that does not work for the NHS tried to advise us to do something illegal to which she advised us to do in an email, but it was illegal to to what she was asking us to do.

 

If after I try and get them to accept liability would I have a claim against them, the NHS and this other body?

[martin2006]

I think you would struggle to get a straight admission of liabilty, even in compensation cases which have gone through the court process, liability is rarely admitted even when compensation is awarded.

If you have proof that malpractice has took place and you can show this with the paperwork you have then i strongly suggest you seek legal representation and prepare for your day in court, i cant see this going any other way and a solicitor will be able to put far more pressure on the NHS to release documents on which you may rely.

Others here may have more experience with dealing with this type of case but i truly think you will need expert legal help.

[nannamoon1]

I think you would struggle to get a straight admission of liabilty, even in compensation cases which have gone through the court process, liability is rarely admitted even when compensation is awarded.

If you have proof that malpractice has took place and you can show this with the paperwork you have then i strongly suggest you seek legal representation and prepare for your day in court, i cant see this going any other way and a solicitor will be able to put far more pressure on the NHS to release documents on which you may rely.

Others here may have more experience with dealing with this type of case but i truly think you will need expert legal help.

 

Thank you, I think you may be right regarding expert legal advice, however we all know too well how costly solicitors are, and I am not sure even if we get some compensation so to speak that it would be that much. I might just seek a one off appointment and see what they say about the case. We all know no win no fee is a bit of a con unless a case is very clear cut and I am not sure any solicitor would take on a case like this on a no win no fee.

 

Maybe someone on here will have a better knowledge of the legalities of a case like this.

[steampowered]

Hi - I don't think you will manage to get the NHS to admit liability for anything in writing, no matter how strong your evidence might be. That isn't something I've ever heard of the NHS doing. Much like local authorities, the NHS tends to fight anything with a whiff of litigation around it.

[nannamoon1]

I wonder if anyone can advise on obtaining a court order to obtain with held information from the NHS in request of my SAR for our son.

 

We have found out and have factual proof of lies, however we had to obtain another request for a SAR from Cahms as they come under a different NHS, CaHMs have virtually with held everything, not sure why because the NHS have disclosed everything and I would like CaHms just to add to the case, so its nothing really that I have not heard or seen before.

 

What is the success rate for going to court for the information? and would it be?

[Miss Hope]

How old is your son ? Do you have parental responsibility ? Does the child have full mental capacity ?

[nannamoon1]

How old is your son ? Do you have parental responsibility ? Does the child have full mental capacity ?

 

My son is 12, and yes we have full parental capacity, we have all the Data from the NHS which has revealed the lies and cover ups, full factual evidence I have.

 

But I wanted the Data from Cahms to further support our evidence, however the consultant has tipped Cahms off as we have confronted the consultant and she has denied everything even though she has written it down and we have copes, so therefore Cahms have with held virtually everything.

 

They are worried as they have all been speaking and wont speak to us anymore directly, they say, I didn't give my permission for this to be released and there has been some misunderstanding.

[Bazooka Boo]

Have you sent them a LBA giving them a further 7/14 days in which to respond to your legal request?

 

The next step would be to then lodge a formal complaint with the ICO to investigate, there is no requirement to take out a private claim against them just yet.

[nannamoon1]

Have you sent them a LBA giving them a further 7/14 days in which to respond to your legal request?

 

The next step would be to then lodge a formal complaint with the ICO to investigate, there is no requirement to take out a private claim against them just yet.

 

Yes, given them 14 days but they have with held the information like I have said, on the grounds it will affect my sons therapy cause his distress, however he know nothing about the SAR how many 12 year olds would lol. We as parents have shielded him from the case like most parents would.

 

The ICO have no powers to obtain the information, they have said they are not medical professionals

[Miss Hope]

Assuming that by "full parental capacity" you mean "full parental responsibility" - CAHMS are entitled to withhold certain information, usually information from third parties and information which may be detrimental to the child. For more information about this, go to ico.org.uk or NHSEngland if you haven't already done so.

 

Making sure you do it in writing, (i) you could press CAHMS further for all the information they have about your child which you believe they have unreasonably withheld (give examples) (ii) remind them that they owe a duty of care to both the child and to you, as parents, so you can better take care of your child and (iii) threaten them with court action if they fail to do so.

 

I don't quite understand your third paragraph.

 

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS FIELD OF LAW

[nannamoon1]

Assuming that by "full parental capacity" you mean "full parental responsibility" - CAHMS are entitled to withhold certain information, usually information from third parties and information which may be detrimental to the child. For more information about this, go to ico.org.uk or NHSEngland if you haven't already done so.

 

Making sure you do it in writing, (i) you could press CAHMS further for all the information they have about your child which you believe they have unreasonably withheld (give examples) (ii) remind them that they owe a duty of care to both the child and to you, as parents, so you can better take care of your child and (iii) threaten them with court action if they fail to do so.

 

I don't quite understand your third paragraph.

 

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS FIELD OF LAW

 

We are our sons biological parents, the ICO have told us that even if we go to them and ask them to investigate what they have with held they have no powers to see the DATA and as they are not medical professional they cannot make a decision if the DATA will cause harm and distress.

 

FYI, Cahms have no DATA that would cause distress or harm, they are being difficult, further more the NHS gave us all their DATA which contains the same type of DATA Cahms hold. They know they have been caught out, just trying to cover up by not giveing us the DATA and using the distress option to with hold.

 

My son is a CaHMS for minor problems s nothing drastic, so no reason why I cannot see the DATA.