Freedom Pass. Settled with TfL out of Court. DOES IT SHOW for immigration/naturalisation etc **NO**

[Rosy77]

Hi

 

I read the forum and could not find a similar post, therefore decided to post myself.

 

A year ago I was caught using my friends Freedom Pass in the underground and was given a caution by the Inspector to remain quiet and give my personal details.

 

 

Two weeks later I received a letter from TFL inviting me to attend a PACE interview under caution with TFL prosecutors,

and due to exceptional circumstances the case was settled out of court and I had to pay a hefty fine.

During the interview under PACE caution i admit using the freedom pass on more occasions

and showed my remoteness and great regret as well as shame.

 

Even though my case did not go as far as court,

i am still concerned whether I will be on any records - PNC, DBS and CRB?

 

 

This is my only concern which delays going ahead with the application for the naturalisation.

I contacted a lawyer and I was told that I may still be on any records even though the case was settled out of the court.

 

 

I contacted 2 lawyers and each of them said a different outcome,

one said I will come up on records regardless of the out of court settlement

and the other lawyer said as it was an out of court settlement I will not be on any records.

 

 

I have made an effort contacting lawyers yet there is no clarity on this issue at all,

therefore i am turning to this forum for any help and advice that may bring some clarity.

 

1. Can you please tell me if I may be on any records?

2. Is there a way how I could find this out myself if I am on any records?

3. I understand that the application for the naturalisation will be taken very seriously and any past caution may affect my application, does anyone have had a similar issue?

4. I suppose Home Office would see any type of caution and misuse of Freedom Pass as a bad character?

[dx100uk]

1.not recorded externally from TFL database

2.you are not

3.no

4. they would poss but it will not show to them

[Rosy77]

Thank you dx100uk for your answer. Much appreciated. It would help if others could post their experience and knowledge on this particular matter as well.

 

Could someone advise on what occasions people are put on PNC,

 

 

i understood the misuse of Freedom Pass even though settled out of court, still will go to records as i was told by a lawyer.

 

 

I am just trying to understand, the fact that my case did not go to court, does it mean I am 100% free from any records?

 

Also,

I was cautioned in the underground,

had a PACE interview recorded under caution, and paid a fine.

 

 

On my naturalisation application do I have to declare whether it was a civil penalty, civil judgement? I am not a lawyer therefore not aware of the meaning of these terms. Home Office will carry out all the checks.

[dx100uk]

you did not pay a fine....

 

 

you settled out of court

 

 

there is no record anywhere other than on TFL's internal database/records.

in case you are stupid enough to do it again.

[Rosy77]

No I had to pay an out of court settlement fine which was around £600 to TFL. I suppose I will need to declare this on my application? I am concerned that i am unaware if I am on any records though...

 

Oh never again, it was the biggest mistake of my life! There is no excuse i did not realise the seriousness of the consequences, now I am even urging others not to do the same mistake i have done !

[dx100uk]

I say again YOU DID NOT PAY A FINE

nowhere does any of the TFL stuff state the out of court settlement IS A FINE!

 

 

its a settlement

 

 

not recorded anywhere other than their internal systems

[Rosy77]

dx100uk Thank you very much for your answer. I would like to hear from other people as well please share your thoughts..

[dx100uk]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?316700-Will-this-go-on-an-enhanced-CRB-Check

Or simply type

TfL settlement crb in the search cag box of the red top toolbar

[Rosy77]

Thank you dx100uk ,

 

 

I clicked on the link you copied and the matter was very similar to mine,

 

 

however I was trying to do my own research as you suggested and often the cases are of different nature.

 

 

I understand the Freedom Pass misuse is seen much more serious than student oyster card misuse.

 

 

Both are offences but one is more serious and normally punishable differently.

 

 

I still hope to hear other views on my case.

 

 

I am sure there must be someone who has gone through exactly the same path.

 

 

I understand TFL will not tell the individual whether he/she will be put on any records.

[Old-CodJA]

What we used to refer to as PNC records are now mainly referred to as the Disclosure & Barring Service ( DBS ).

 

If your case did not go before a Court it will not appear as any record on a DBS entry except in cases where a formal Police caution was issued at a Police station.

 

The only record in your case will be with the Train Operating Company ( TOC ), which will show that you have had a previous warning and if you come to attention in similar circumstances again in the future they are very likely to prosecute.

 

The TOC record will not play any part in a naturalisation application

[Rosy77]

Thank you Old-CodJA for your answer it really brought me some clarity.

 

The final letter i received from TFL stated:

"You must return a signed copy of the conditions of withdrawal and ensure payment is made to TFL..."

Letter was called "Letter of warning and conditions of with withdrawal".

 

I understand that if my case did not go to the court,

TFL will keep a record on my case internally and no disclosure to any records even though

I admit my fault fully due to my circumstances surrounding the case.

 

Also, I would appreciate if you could clarify to me :

 

1. Was this a civil penalty or civil judgement ( i assume civil judgement only if it goes to court i mean any matter)

which i paid to TFL as I have to answer this question in my naturalisation application.

 

2. The other important question the naturalisation application will ask

is whether I have ever been charged or indicted in any country with a criminal offence for which I have not been tried in court?

(apart from the freedom pass incident which was dealt without the intervention with court,

I have never been in any trouble not even a small civil trouble).

 

3. Do I need to declare the freedom pass incident in my application for the naturalisation

or not as it was dealt by way of administrative fine and will not show on any records thus no need to declare it.

Or I still have to declare it

and if so , i would really appreciate if you helped me out on this matter

as I really want to be honest and have peace in my mind when I submit the application.

 

* I apologize If I am writing and asking too much, i really appreciate every single comment.

 

Also, i forgtot to mention

 

distinguishing the difference between cautions

- interview under PACE (recorded) is not a caution that goes in DBS records?

 

 

In the naturalisation application I have to answer a question whether I have ever received a caution.

 

 

The interview under PACE and caution from the inspector in the underground does not amount to a caution that i would need to disclose I have received in my application?

 

 

I have done plenty of research also on this matter however still lacking some clarity on cautions.

[dx100uk]

it was not a penalty nor a fine

it was a non recordable out of court 'settlement'.

[Rosy77]

Thank you dx100uk

 

I appreciate a lot those who answered huge thank you..

 

I wonder if there is anyone in the same shoes as me? out of court settlement from TFL and an application for the naturalisation....

[dx100uk]

yes lots have had the same sort of issue and have had no trouble with the application for the naturalisation....

 

 

nice to see you helping out around CAG too

 

 

dx

[Rosy77]

thank you dx100uk

 

I really like this forum and it is interesting to read around what other people have experienced! I hope people learn from their mistakes and its good to learn also from other people mistakes!

[Stigy]

Also, I would appreciate if you could clarify to me :

 

1. Was this a civil penalty or civil judgement ( i assume civil judgement only if it goes to court i mean any matter)

which i paid to TFL as I have to answer this question in my naturalisation application.

It was neither. As has been said, but just to clarify. If asked anything about ANY court penalty or other penalty you have NOTHING to declare.

 

2. The other important question the naturalisation application will ask

is whether I have ever been charged or indicted in any country with a criminal offence for which I have not been tried in court?

(apart from the freedom pass incident which was dealt without the intervention with court,

I have never been in any trouble not even a small civil trouble).

This refers to basically whether you've been investigated by Police or other Government agencies by the sounds of it (such as immigration or HMRC). TfL wouldn't count as one of these agencies. Nothing to declare.

 

3. Do I need to declare the freedom pass incident in my application for the naturalisation

or not as it was dealt by way of administrative fine and will not show on any records thus no need to declare it.

Or I still have to declare it

and if so , i would really appreciate if you helped me out on this matter

as I really want to be honest and have peace in my mind when I submit the application.

This was a settlement, and not a fine. Only a court can issue a fine, and you have not been to court with this matter.

 

 

Also, i forgtot to mention

 

distinguishing the difference between cautions

- interview under PACE (recorded) is not a caution that goes in DBS records?

 

 

In the naturalisation application I have to answer a question whether I have ever received a caution.

 

 

The interview under PACE and caution from the inspector in the underground does not amount to a caution that i would need to disclose I have received in my application?

 

 

I have done plenty of research also on this matter however still lacking some clarity on cautions.

The only caution you'd need to declare is an official Caution which is used as way of a resolution in certain circumstances (so as to avoid court, the police might issue a caution for low-level crimes such as low value theft). The caution you had was basically telling you that if the matter went to court, and you failed to mention something when being questioned, but later wanted to say something to the effect in court, you won't be able to use it, or at best the magistrates or judge will be wanting to know why you chose not to speak at the time of the offence, but are now pleading your case in court.

 

Police Cautions although called the same thing, aren't (it's not really a police caution either....just a caution). In layman's terms, the caution you received was just a formality so you could be questioned officially. You do NOT have to declare this. Police also caution offenders in this way to ask questions on the street, and upon arresting them, but this is still NOT the caution referred to that you need to declare.

 

 

So to sum up.

 

If I say "I'm going to resolve this with a simple caution for theft, given the relatively low value of what you stole" then do the paperwork and hand you a piece of paper, this IS NOT what you received and is different to being cautioned in the basic sense of the word under PACE i.e.: "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence....etc etc".

 

Don't worry, if what you've said is factual, you don't need to declare anything.

[Rosy77]

Stigy - THE BEST ANSWER YOU COULD ASK FOR! very precise and answered all my questions and you did not skip anything. Thank you so much! Great knowledge! I was waiting for this kind of answer !!!!

[honeybee13]

Stigy - THE BEST ANSWER YOU COULD ASK FOR! very precise and answered all my questions and you did not skip anything. Thank you so much! Great knowledge! I was waiting for this kind of answer !!!!

 

Rosy, if you would like to thank Stigy, you could click on the star at the bottom left of his post and leave a short message.

 

HB

[Stigy]

Stigy - THE BEST ANSWER YOU COULD ASK FOR! very precise and answered all my questions and you did not skip anything. Thank you so much! Great knowledge! I was waiting for this kind of answer !!!!

Thanks, always nice when people come back and give feedback etc. Glad to have helped out!