FORD MONDEO Cutting Out

[100949football]

The none starting on a cold morning is solved but still no idea what is causing it to stall under acceleration. That will be another trial and error but I suspect substantially more expensive!

 

Yup .....Piggy Bank / Rainy Day funds........! I'll try to keep in touch re my own probs. I'm booking in to the Ford guys for the glow plug replacements.....I'm just dreading they encounter problems (glow plugs snapping etc., then car off the road) / and / or mega bill.

[neil6534]

PLEASE DO NOT USE PDL'S - ask the bank of mum and dad or friends first

[100949football]

I would bet my mortgage that you'd have the P0251 DTC stored in the PCM (fuel metering control fault). What this means is the engine is cutting out due to the fuel pressure being unable to meet the required amount by the PCM.

 

This is generally caused by worn injectors, and the general remedy on these engines is to change all 4 diesel injectors (you should aim to change them after 100,000 miles or 10 years). However, as a starting point, it's always advised to change the fuel filter first (this should be changed yearly at the service interval).

 

It's expensive, a Delphi injectior for this engine will cost around £125 on sites like eBay (new or remanufactured). Changing them is simple (you'll need an injector socket), however they will need coding into the ECU (they have a code on the body of the injectior). Failure to code them in will lead to running problems, and a potential non starting engine.

 

What's happening is the worn injectors will be leaking back fuel into the leak off pipes (injectors can be tested by performing a leak off test which includes measuring the amount of diesel that's returned through the leak off pipes over a test cycle, an excessive amount will point to a shot injector that needs replacing).

 

A small amount of leak back is normal, however excessive leak back causes problems with the fuel system maintaining pressure in the fuel rail. Any competent mechanic will perform a leak off test after reading the DTC codes to check for injector wear.

 

When excess fuel is leaked back to the high pressure fuel pump, the system struggles to maintain both pressure, and a backlog of diesel from the injector leak off to the fuel pump. The pressure isn't relived because diesel is leaking back at a rate faster than the pump can handle.

 

The PCM will then cut the engine to stop any potential damage being caused by this. Generally the glow plug light will flash (indicating a fault being recorded, and limp home mode with limited power). The fault allows you to drive with limited power, however from my experience the engine will cut out completely after a few seconds of limited power.

 

On some of the older TDCi's (2002/2003), the fuel pumps would wear out over time (the bearings would break down), causing swarf (microscopic metallic particles) to pass through the fuel rail and ultimately the injectors at extremely high pressures. Over time this would contaminate the high pressure system, leading to premature wear.

 

Under hard acceleration you'll suffer this fault because more fuel is being leaked back. It's a dangerous situation, because the car can cut out when pulling out of junctions, onto roundabouts, overtaking.

 

Personally I'd budget upto around £1000 to have it repaired correctly if 4 injectors need changing.

 

 

many thanks for this info (by far the best I have received - over several forums) and all makes complete sense to me.......it is just to evaluate whether or not the cost justifies the end !

 

On the from cold non-starting issue.....can you help there? As I said will not start from cold in the morning - even when the ambient temp is mild - a wee sniff of "easy start" and away it goes.....running all day happily, even switching off for a couple of hours, then the following morning exact same problem?

[tobyjugg2]

On the from cold non-starting issue.....can you help there? As I said will not start from cold in the morning - even when the ambient temp is mild - a wee sniff of "easy start" and away it goes.....running all day happily, even switching off for a couple of hours, then the following morning exact same problem?

 

From above (I added it so may have been missed) :

 

Let me add another suggestion:

Turn on the ignition when cold and wait for all the dash lights to go off without trying to start the car.

Switch it off.

Switch it back on again and again wait the few seconds for all the dash lights to go off then try to start it.

 

It gives the heaters two goes at warming the engine (heating is needed in all but the hottest weather for diesels) - usually as effective as a squirt of easystart if it is heaters, but no difference if its something else,

although it will also help if you have leaking injectors (look for damp/oily around the injectors).

[100949football]

From above (I added it so may have been missed) :

 

Let me add another suggestion:

Turn on the ignition when cold and wait for all the dash lights to go off without trying to start the car.

Switch it off.

Switch it back on again and again wait the few seconds for all the dash lights to go off then try to start it.

 

It gives the heaters two goes at warming the engine (heating is needed in all but the hottest weather for diesels) - usually as effective as a squirt of easystart if it is heaters, but no difference if its something else,

although it will also help if you have leaking injectors (look for damp/oily around the injectors).

 

 

 

many thanks - again!

[tobyjugg2]

If you do get one of those cheap bluetooth obd connectors and the Torque app

 

http://mechanicalee.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/ford-engine-management-fault-code.html

 

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0093

 

http://www.talkford.com/community/topic/203459-p0325-error-code-knock-sensor-malfunction-help-please/

[Hammy1962]

I just love these types of thread, why not expand on the guesswork by the many previous posters and change one of the 4 door latches? It will be no help but equally as probable as changing 'sensors' willy nilly.

 

1. Take it to a Ford Specialist independent for a connection to IDS and see what they say. Probably initially cheaper but it will take them three times as long to diagnose, thus negating any savings on labour. They will supply non genuine or used parts to keep the cost down, these can give false positives and an impression of a fix, but not.

 

2. Take it to a Ford Dealer for connection to IDS, pay the diagnostic charge and see what they say. Should be no more than an hour to diagnose, uses genuine Ford parts. Not as expensive as you think. More chance of a first time fix.

 

Either way it needs to be hooked up to an IDS and not a £4.99 ODB toy. (It has been known, more than once, for these things to 'spike' an ECU and then you are really stuffed).

 

Two most expensive items it will be are injectors or the fuel pump, considering the age of the car, both these items can be reconditioned at a reasonable price, you don't need new. £1500 is a ridiculous price guess anyway.

 

For my attempt at an off the cuff, but very well informed........guess. I'd say it was a blocked fuel filter, fit a replacement, genuine, fuel filter. Make sure you have the tools and knowledge to bleed the system properly after fitting.

 

H

[tobyjugg2]

I just love these types of thread, why not expand on the guesswork by the many previous posters and change one of the 4 door latches? It will be no help but equally as probable as changing 'sensors' willy nilly.

 

1. Take it to a Ford Specialist independent for a connection to IDS and see what they say...........

2. Take it to a Ford dealer for connection to IDS, pay the diagnostic charge and see what they say..........

 

Either way it needs to be hooked up to IDS and not a £1.99 ODB toy. (It has been known, more than once, for these things to 'spike' an ECU and then you are really stuffed).

 

Two most expensive items it will be are injectors or the fuel pump, considering the age of the car, both these items can be reconditioned at a reasonable price, you don't need new. £1500 is a ridiculous price guess anyway.

 

For my attempt at an off the cuff, but very well informed........guess. I'd say it was a blocked fuel filter, fit a replacement, genuine, fuel filter. Make sure you have the tools and knowledge to bleed the system properly after fitting.

 

H

 

Its a cheap way to look for error codes as well as many other features which work across many cars

 

Ford garages are often clowns (As owner of fords for many years)

 

£800 - 1500 for injectors are quite normal prices, with 1200-1500+ being the Ford garage end for Mondeo TDCI's - which I'm surprised you don't know.

 

Other than that, Thanks for repeating one of the already stated possibilities (post 11)

[Hammy1962]

Well, that's two of us that think same then, does that make it any more likely?

 

Depending on which engine\fuel system it has the injectors for a 2005 Mondeo are either £171 or £187 each. They can be reconditioned for half the price. You could get 8 for £1500.

 

Not bad for a clown.

 

H

[tobyjugg2]

Depending on which engine\fuel system it has the injectors for a 2005 Mondeo are either £171 or £187 each. They can be reconditioned for half the price. You could get 8 for £1500.

 

Not bad for a clown.

H

 

and of course, that includes the Ford garage free fitting !!! (NOT)

That really is a laugh.

[mch1991]

Tough starting can be indicative of an injector problem (which would be about right if the engine is cutting out under load). Worn injectors can cause many issues, from my experience with TDCi engines, people buy them, run them into high mileage or buy them at high mileage, and forget that parts like injectors do have a shelf life, and do need replacing after reaching a set mileage/age.

 

Injectors work at ridiculously high pressures (20,000psi and above), they run at extremely tight tolerances, spray fuel at a very precise moment, in a very precise pattern. Over time they breakdown, which causes problems.

 

Life expectancy is around 100,000 miles or 10 years, which is what I've heard from Ford technicians in the past, which seems about right. They can last much longer, but generally you should replace at the above intervals.

 

Do you have any white smoke/a rougher sounding engine when cold?

 

Well, if the car is mechanically sound, then spending upwards of £1,000 shouldn't be an issue. Think of the replacement cars for £1,000 which have the equipment these older Mondeo's have (not many!). At least you'll have a good car with a clean bill of health.

 

The 2.0 TDCi is a good engine, lot's of power and lots of torque considering it's age, and those Ghia/Ghia X Mondeo's have amazing specifications for the price.

[Hammy1962]

and of course, that includes the Ford garage free fitting !!! (NOT)

That really is a laugh.

 

Again, depending on the engine the labour time for R&I 4 injectors may well be less than an hour, 0.8 in fact. Still a long way to go to reach your target price.

 

I think I should wait for the OP to respond instead of fuelling (pun intended) your discontentment with Ford Dealers.

 

H

[mch1991]

Well, that's two of us that think same then, does that make it any more likely?

 

Depending on which engine\fuel system it has the injectors for a 2005 Mondeo are either £171 or £187 each. They can be reconditioned for half the price. You could get 8 for £1500.

 

Not bad for a clown.

 

H

 

It doesn't really matter whether you go for brand new or reconditioned. Your post is confusing, you seem to forget that;

 

- Injectors cost £125-£200 new or reconditioned (depending who you talk to or where you buy from).

 

- Fitting requires dissembling the fuel system at the top of the engine (removing the high pressure pipes from the rail to injectors, removing sensitive clips on both the injector electrical connections and fuel leak off pipes). Working on high pressure fuel systems can carry risks, some people prefer to get a professional to fit them.

 

- Removing the injectiors requires a special socket attachment, injectors can be very tightly screwed into the engine head, and the collar can snap making them unbelievably hard to get out.

 

- Refitting the injectors requires them to be coded into the PCM, otherwise they will not run in sync with the PCM causing a host of other problems from rough running, to a non starter.

 

- Reassembling everything requires great care, and can be tricky. The slightest bit of dirt can cause irreversible damage.

 

Mechanics charge for the above (labour, and generally recoding the injectors attracts a seperate charge). So at the end of it, you're talking nearly £1,000 at many places.

[tobyjugg2]

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=78705

 

To the op - the prices I stated are what you would pay at a main Ford garage whatever hammy claims.

 

I would suggest you invest just £10 in the odb connector and app and see what it says.

At worst, you have wasted a tenner but will have something that can still tell you average fuel consumptions and speeds over trips, precisely how much fuel you are using with various driving styles and many other things

 

or you could just get a second mortgage and leave your car with a ford dealer

 

 

From RAC site - 2007 so 2007 prices

"They really know what they are doing and can get injectors direct from Delphi at £130+VAT each, saving about £80 per injector on Ford prices, and fit them for you for about 2 hours labour @ £50/hour.

However, you have to flush out the iron filings dust from the fuel tank and fuel lines before changing anything which will put up the labour charge. I got a pump through partsgateway.co.uk which seems to be OK. I also got a set of injectors through their system but at least one is not up to sopec as I get a pronounced diesel knock from one cylinder for the first 1/2 to 1 mile after start up. The pump seems OK and I am going to take the car to AP and get them to put a new set of injectors in and sort the problem once and for all."

[AndyOrch]

Think it time to move on chaps...OP has not been near since 11.30 and Im sure he is now armed with all the advice he could possibly ever need.

 

Andyorch

[100949football]

From above (I added it so may have been missed) :

 

Let me add another suggestion:

Turn on the ignition when cold and wait for all the dash lights to go off without trying to start the car.

Switch it off.

Switch it back on again and again wait the few seconds for all the dash lights to go off then try to start it.

 

It gives the heaters two goes at warming the engine (heating is needed in all but the hottest weather for diesels) - usually as effective as a squirt of easystart if it is heaters, but no difference if its something else,

although it will also help if you have leaking injectors (look for damp/oily around the injectors).

 

tried it Tobyjugg my friend........not a chance?

[100949football]

I just love these types of thread, why not expand on the guesswork by the many previous posters and change one of the 4 door latches? It will be no help but equally as probable as changing 'sensors' willy nilly.

 

1. Take it to a Ford Specialist independent for a connection to IDS and see what they say. Probably initially cheaper but it will take them three times as long to diagnose, thus negating any savings on labour. They will supply non genuine or used parts to keep the cost down, these can give false positives and an impression of a fix, but not.

 

2. Take it to a Ford Dealer for connection to IDS, pay the diagnostic charge and see what they say. Should be no more than an hour to diagnose, uses genuine Ford parts. Not as expensive as you think. More chance of a first time fix.

 

Either way it needs to be hooked up to an IDS and not a £4.99 ODB toy. (It has been known, more than once, for these things to 'spike' an ECU and then you are really stuffed).

 

Two most expensive items it will be are injectors or the fuel pump, considering the age of the car, both these items can be reconditioned at a reasonable price, you don't need new. £1500 is a ridiculous price guess anyway.

 

For my attempt at an off the cuff, but very well informed........guess. I'd say it was a blocked fuel filter, fit a replacement, genuine, fuel filter. Make sure you have the tools and knowledge to bleed the system properly after fitting.

 

H

 

 

Good to see we still retain our senses of humour .....!! New fuel filter (properly bled) was one of the first options tried.......no luck there I'm afraid!

[100949football]

Think it time to move on chaps...OP has not been near since 11.30 and Im sure he is now armed with all the advice he could possibly ever need.

 

Andyorch

 

 

I'm still here Andyorch and watching intently the varying degrees of information.........I guess it's what has been openly and repeatedly suggested on a host of Forums have visited......no-one really knows the solution.....including Ford and it's gonna cost a small fortune to find out.........you know- if I could sort out the "starting first thing in the morning problem" I could suffer the rest. Even the wee squirt of easy start isn't anywhere near as expensive as new injectors / new pumps / etc., etc., etc.,. Once the car gets started - overall it runs fine the rest of the day. I have also become a bit of an "expert" at knowing what NOT to do for the engine to conk out.....ie watching the gear I am in and in relation to the engine revs, and NOT letting the engine "labour" in any gear.......wotcha think guys ?????? Just leave the bloody thing alone......!!!!!!?????

[tobyjugg2]

I think some of the confusion may be your initially saying it was just a starting issue, then you said it loses power and you had to watch what revs/gear you were in to prevent stalling.

 

Just a cold starting issue is most probably glowplugs - pretty much confirmed its not the case

 

Intermittent with no pattern would most likely be an electrical issue (including sensors) - but there seems to be a pattern

 

Loosing power and cold start issues is more likely fuel, so fuel line/injectors/filters/control sensors - maybe egr valve and grot.

Most of these should result in a readable error code or codes which should shorten the list of possible issues.

 

Low cost checks -

look for wetness around injectors or blocked fuel/air filter

the cheap odb + app

 

as its highly tuned it may even be cheap diesel causing the problems as the engine gets older. De-tuning or using a fuel quality booster additive might help with the issues unless its turbo related.

[Conniff]

Can you please confirm the model and year as you have two different years stated ??

 

Has the car always been like this starting from cold or has it happened lately ??