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    • Bolmsgr   if it was me I would put it first as if the contract is invalid  and if the Judge agrees, then you win the case.  Indeed, it may be that VCS would not even turn up in at the Hearing or withdraw which would be the ideal situation. However this is your case and FTMDave has worked hard with you to help on your WS.   Whatever you decide to put it I have modified what I said in my previous post so that you can copy it. Definition of "Relevant contract”  from PoFA 2  [1] means a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land) between the driver and a person who is—   (a)the owner or occupier of the land; or  (b) authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land.   According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44  a contract to be valid requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures. The fact that no witness signatures are present means the deed has not been validly executed. Therefore there can be no contract established between VCS and the motorist. And even if "no stopping" could form a contract [which it cannot], it is immaterial. There is no valid contract end of. Surely VCS a company that signs innumerable contracts must be aware that no contract exists at the East Midlands Airport. Two points arise from that. The first is that by issuing many PCNs at EMA with knowingly not having a valid contract is bordering on fradulent. Second, VCS in order  to gain access to DVLA data VCS have averred that they have complied in their CoP that they have complied with all the legal necessities, which appears patently untrue. As Lord Neuberger said in the famous Parking Eye v Beavis  at the Supreme Court [2015] UKSC 67-"And, while the Code of Practice is not a contractual document, it is in practice binding on the operator since its existence and observance is a condition of his ability to obtain details of the registered keeper from the DVLA. In assessing the fairness of a term, it cannot be right to ignore the regulatory framework which determines how and in what circumstances it may be enforced". The Noble Lord is correct and should call into question the right of VCS to obtain information from the DVLA.   You may have noticed that in the second paragraph of this post the words "relevant land" cropped up which would be a good follow on for bringing up the Bye Laws and streets covered by the Road Traffic Act in case the Judge did not accept the contract argument.                         bolmgsr 1   Posted just now  bolmgsr    1 Basic Account Holder Topic Owner   Registered Users Change your profile picture 1 48 posts Author Report Share #101   Posted just now New post added to VCS/ELMS Spy car 2*PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform for 1 of them - 'NO STOPPING' BP Station East Midlands airport while you've been viewing. Ok thanks everyone, I’ve made the relevant changes just need to get all the exhibits together then send copies to court and VCS. Thanks for all your help and I’ll keep you posted on what happens.   Thanks Haha Confused Sad Like ×   Quote Report   Link to post Share on other sites              
    • FAO MIDDLEMAN: Can you please let me know what you would advise me to do as I didn’t attend the hearing and I’m not currently working and not claiming benefits. Furthermore, I was told to pay a fine initially but decided that I would appeal.
    • Ok thanks everyone, I’ve made the relevant changes just need to get all the exhibits together then send copies to court and VCS. Thanks for all your help and I’ll keep you posted on what happens.
    • Thanks Andy,   Question and answers below.   Name of the Claimant ? Western Circle LTD   Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to. 11th June.  It arrived 16th Of June.  I know that because I went away on the evening of the 15th June returning home on the 22nd. The letter wasn't here before I left but was when I returned.  I acknowledged service online on the 23rd June.   Date of issue 11th June + 19 days ( 5 day for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = 29th June + 14 days to submit defence = 13th July (33 days in total) - 13th July to submit defense?   ^^^^^ NOTE : WHEN CALCULATING THE TIMELINE - PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE DATE ON THE CLAIMFORM IS ONE IN THE COUNT [example: Issue date 01.03.2014 + 19 days (5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = 19.03.2014 + 14 days to submit defence = 02.04.2014] = 33 days in total   Particulars of Claim   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim in full (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down.   "The claimant is a lender of short-term finance to consumers under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.  On 06-02-2019 the parties entered in to an agreement whereby the Defendant borrowed the sum of £400 to be repaid in 2 monthly instalment, at the agreed contractual daily interest rate of 0.78%, capped at 100% of loan value.   Despite extensive chasing, the Defendant failed to repay their loan in full and interest and costs have been incurred.   The Claimant therefor Claims:   1. £400 being the amount loaned. 2. £400 being interest up to the date of this claim. 3. £0.00 being amount paid"   What is the total value of the claim? £870   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? About 2 months ago, I received a letter before action (they called it a "letter of claim") through the post. For the most part it looked genuine.  That is it had a basic statement of the loan, original interest which would have been occurred etc, a reply form which had options for me to either agree the debt, dispute it etc and finally - a basic financial statement form for me to fill in if I wanted to make a offer to pay over time, however.   The info on how to respond to the letter of claim had a very clear instructions saying - "you only have 30 days from the date at the top of the letter from the business to send back the reply form".  likewise the pre-action protocols state the letter should be clearly dated.   There were absolutely no dates on the accompanying letter, absolutely none. Because of this, I assumed it was just a standard threat and ignored it.  Yes that was probably very stupid of me.   I have kept that letter so still have it.   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? Not applicable. Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Payday loan   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? First loan would be early 2019 I then would have paid that off an immediately taken another to use to live on.   Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Definitely online.   Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes   Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original creditor.   Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Not applicable in this case as original creditor   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Not that I'm aware   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? No   Why did you cease payments? I had multiple loans with multiple companies at the time and stopped payment to try and sort myself / finances out.   What was the date of your last payment? early 2019 I believe.   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? No
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Parking charge notice - A S Parking in Cornwall


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I need clarification with a parking charge notice received from A S Parking based over in Newquay. A group of us, 10 in all, received a PCN for parking on private land demanding £60 within 14 days or £100 within 28 days at around 8.30 in the evening. We were attending a friend's birthday party who had no idea that only residents were allowed to park there. We thought of appealing to the company for the following reasons:

 

1. Everyone was coming to this area for the first time and in the dark.

 

2. The private parking notice outside the house was not seen as (a) the light was out above the notice and, even if it had been on, (b) the notice was too high to be read from the ground in the dark.

 

3. When visiting a place for the first time in the dark a driver is generally trying to find the address and, again, as the light was out on this lamp post by this house, no-one saw it.

 

4. There are no lines indicating 'no parking' on this road.

 

5. 2 guest cars parked further down the same road did not receive parking tickets. This seems very inconsistent.

 

6. We are all genuinely careful citizens and not one of us set out to act illegally or unfairly.

 

What chances do we have of these points being taken on board? The company is an IAS member and from what I have read that even if our original appeal has been rejected, appealing to the IAS will be of no use as it seems to be a kangaroo court.

 

Do we just pay up the reduced fine and forget about it?

 

Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many thanks. :-x

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Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Were the tickets on the windscreen?

 

Can you get someone to take pictures of the signs both in daylight and at night.

 

Were there any signs on entering the road?

 

Athens Security (trading as A S Parking) are members if the IPC who act fast and loose with the provisions of the PoFA 2012.

 

As far as my own checks reveal, I can find no cases taken to court by ASP but since a recent judgement (Beavis) you may need to appeal this. If it was a windscreen ticket then wait for the Notice to Keeper and see what that says.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Thank you, silverfox1961. Yes, these PCNs were on our windscreen. I did take a photo at night and need to take one in daylight. There was a notice on a lit lamppost but this was hardly noticeable as it was dark and moreover high up - needless to say, we were all looking for the house no in the dark.

 

If your advice is to wait for Notice to Keeper, will this not go past the 14 day rule, thereby, increasing the cost? Are you saying that we should not appeal to them as keeper of the car as per moneysavirngexpert.com advises?

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the only point that will get you anywhere is number 2, the signage was inadequate and placed in such a position as to be unreadable in the dark. This point wont get your tickets cancelled by AS Parking but will go a long way to defeating any future court claim so stick with that for the moment when you do appel to ASP. Dont worry about going over the discount time with your appealing etc, if you intend to fight that doesnt count for anything.

Firstly though, you got a screen ticket, what was the date of that? The company then has to send a Notice to keeper between 29 and 56 days after the event, any sooner or later and it isnt valid so no keeper liability. AS often get this wrong so dont be contacting them before you get the NTK. Mkae them spend their money on a wild goose chase, when it comes to a later appeal there are plenty of other things you can appeal on and make them and the IPC look stupid ( they dont need much help in that dept).

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Thank you for your advice, ericsbrother. The ticket was issued at 20:28. I have noticed on A S Parking's online appeal page that you have to put a name and address as well as an email address. Can we get away with putting false names and addresses but valid email addresses (so that we get a reply)?

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on what day? How did you get the ticket? On your car windscreen? if so read my post above again (and plenty of others to get an idea of what is what) they have to obey strict protocols to get any money and AS rarely do, that is how to easily defeat them.

You do not go anywhere near AS parking's web site and do not say anything until you get the NTK. Read all about private parking appeals before you do anything or you will give away many of the reasons for the claim being invalid.

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NO, you cant appeal as keeper until you get the notice to keeper. Make them spend their money getting the keeper details and then sending out that notice. AS nearly always get it wrong and then lose the chance to claim. that is why we say wait at this stage otherwise they dont have to go to the effort and also know they are chasing the right person as you ahve identified yourself as the driver becuase you have jumped the gun.

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The guy's on here are better than CAB!

Do nothing until the NTK is with you, listen to these guy's they are not people who say ":I think", They know the law.

 

Just follow their instructions.

 

And do what I will do soon, give generously.

Edited by jimbojetset68
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I posted the same question on moneysavingsexpert.com's forum. Interestingly enough, I got a response from one of the residents or it could be A S Parking themselves! These PCNs must have been slapped on the windscreens after the resident complained about one of the guests who blocked their garage, but who duly moved it once notified.

 

“To help you out kerensa as a resident on the estate I wish to address your points, firstly the householder you were at was given a letter and two permits for visitors and the whole process was clearly explained and the person was also personally spoken to about the scheme before it commenced. The signage is clear and prior to the address you have passed some three signs so if these were missed I would question your ability to drive at night as they are all clear and large. Further more having had my garage and my neighbours blocked by a party goer the household was knocked on and no one admitted it was their car! Worth noting that this car was also parked under a sign regarding the restrictions and a street light so clearly no reason to miss it! No lines are required for the scheme as there is clear signage as I have already stated. I question your genuinely careful citizens when numerous drives and garages were blocked by the party goers, I wonder how you would feel if you couldn't get in your garage when returning home from work at night and knocking on doors to no avail. I wish you luck in your appeal as numerous residents were disgusted with the visitors parking attitude and if needed I for one would happily supply to the company any evidence they might required for civil action.

I raise the point again that the host resident is fully aware of the parking enforcement and struggle to see your point that you could not see at least on of the five signs that stretch from the entrance to the estate to where the bottom garages were blocked right beside a sign!"

Originally posted by maddog2015

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That MSE site is pretty poor IMO, and is littered with trolls, the advice on there is very questionable, I'd most certainly not take any advice from there.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Does it count for anything for the host of the party to write a latter to the estate management team who have passed the parking control to the parking enforcement team?

 

Also, just noticed that the BPA logo is on the PCN, however, it states on the back that an appeal to the ATA has to go to IPC. Does this mean I request a POPLA code when it comes to it?

Edited by jumbosticka
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just noticed that the BPA logo is on the PCN, however, it states on the back that an appeal to the ATA has to go to IPC. Does this mean I request a POPLA code when it comes to it?

 

Funny that, I can't seem to find them as members on the BPA website?

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/approved-operators

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Well you may have won already without lifting a finger??

 

But wait for ericsbrother to advise, do you have any photos of the signage? Does the BPA logo appear on those as well??

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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From what I can tell from the photo of the sinage, they haven't got the BPA logo on that (just the IPC logo), but then why mislead people on the PCNs? May have to go back to the site to verify this.

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A PPC can have corporate membership of the BPA but not their AOS.

 

Athens Security Services Limited*joined the IPC AOS on 1/5/2015.

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Does it count for anything for the host of the party to write a latter to the estate management team who have passed the parking control to the parking enforcement team?

 

?

Well, the estate management team dont have the legal authority to sign these bandits up so you will win eventually but let us see if they can get things wrong for themselves and hit them with that before using all of the ammunition up.

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Just out of interest, in order for the signage to be compliant, is it compulsory to have the hours of enforcement on it?

 

Have a read of the IPC code of practice with regards to signage;

 

http://www.theipc.info/accredited-operator-scheme

 

You must adequately display any signs intended to form the basis of contract between the creditor and the driver. Such signs must; 1) Identify yourself as ‘the Creditor’; 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) Identify the amount of any charge and explain when it becomes payable; Advise drivers that if a charge remains unpaid for a period of 28 days after issue then an application will be made for the Keeper’s details from DVLA, or, that they may be requested immediately such that a notice may be served on the keeper by post; Be clearly legible and placed in such a position (or positions) such that a driver of a vehicle is able to see them clearly upon entering the site or parking a vehicle within the site; Have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that it is clear to the reasonable driver that he is entering into a contract with the creditor or committing a trespass as the case may be; Contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relative position of the person who it is aimed at. Be of a colour scheme that provides good contrast between the background of the sign and the text upon it.

 

Best read the PDF in the link as the formatting is screwed above!

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