Parking charge notice - A S Parking in Cornwall

[jumbosticka]

Have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that it is clear to the reasonable driver that he is entering into a contract with the creditor or committing a trespass as the case may be

 

Thank you. Well, that's a little ambiguous, to say the least! How is the driver to know it applies to 24 hours parking??

[jumbosticka]

This is the reply that the householder got on complaining to the estate management team! Note the reference to BPA...

 

All property owners on the development have been provided with two free parking permits and the option to purchase an additional two permits for £15 each. This is in addition to each property owners own demised parking spaces or garages.

 

As requested I can now respond to the points you raised as follows:

 

1. The parking permit signs are black and white

 

The parking permit scheme is fully operated by A.S Parking Management and Enforcement Services, who are members of the British Parking Association’s Approved Operator Scheme. All signage relating to the permit parking scheme is provided by AS Parking and is in an approved format.

 

2. The parking permit signs are too high

 

Signs are displayed around the site at various levels. The first sign on entry to xxxx is clearly visible at eye level whilst driving and states that it is a private road with permit parking restrictions in place. Other signs around the site are displayed at appropriate heights for roadside signage.

 

3. The street lighting is inadequate

 

The street lighting at xxxx is maintained by Persimmon Homes until such time as the roads and streetlights are adopted by Cornwall Council. Any faults with the street lights should be notified to Persimmon Homes or to our office so that we can notify Persimmon Homes on your behalf.

 

4. There are no road markings identifying the permit parking restrictions

 

The signs displayed around the development notifying visitors that there is a permit parking restriction in place are considered to be adequate, and road markings are not considered necessary.

 

5. Parking permits should only be required during office hours

 

Unfortunately, before the permit parking restrictions were introduced, unauthorised parking was a problem 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. In fact the problems were generally worse in the evenings and at weekends, when most residents were at home.

 

Visitors to the development are given adequate notice that there are parking restrictions in place, and parking charge notices are issued in accordance with the British Parking Association’s approved guidelines.

 

If you feel the parking charge notices that were issued were unjustified, the driver of each vehicle has the right to an appeal, and full details of the appeals process are given on the parking charge notice and should be sent to -

 

A S Parking

 

Athens Security Services Ltd

 

PO BOX 520

 

Newquay

 

TR7 9BU

[Bazooka Boo]

There was going to be no other response from the LL really, I wouldn't pay any attention to what they say TBH.

[jumbosticka]

Here are the pics showing the unlit lamppost and signage:

 

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w395/kerensacornwall/parking/IMG_8831_zpskvfvbmvm.jpg

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w395/kerensacornwall/parking/IMG_8906_zpsonevcw7u.jpg

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w395/kerensacornwall/parking/IMG_8874_zpsnpfio5ka.jpg

http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w395/kerensacornwall/parking/IMG_8911_zpsqlya2xtf.jpg

[ericsbrother]

what signs are visible when you enter the development? these ones may apply to an undefined area and as the road is likely to be a continuation of a public road and by their own admission adopted by the council in the immediate future this boundary would be an important part of any offer of a contract.

[ericsbrother]

Also, how can visitors to the development be given adequate notice in terms of time? Do the estate managment bods phone eveyone in the country at random and warn them if they are thining of popping down to make sure they get a visitors permit? utterly silly statement by them.

[jumbosticka]

I have not got the pics of the signs to the entrance - will have to pop back and take these. Well, if the signs were visible at the entrance (which none of the 12 drivers saw) with a clear sign to say that it was 24 hours enforced, then I would have thought that at least one of us would have noticed it and questioned it with the householder. The unlit lamppost was right next to the householder's property as well which did not help as it was pitch dark. Did they expect us to climb up the lamppost with a torch if we had indeed noticed the signs?

[ericsbrother]

All this is helpful for your appeal but bear in mind the IAS does not believe the law applies to their members you may find their determination is rather unusual in its findings to say the least so not taking a ladder and a torch may not be far off the mark in what they expect a motorist to do.

So you can say that there is no definition of where the public highway ends and the private land starts, no signage at the entrance to the private land so not aware of it being such or that a contract was being offered. The street lighting wasnt working so the miniscule signs half way up a lamppost were not visible. This means no offer and consideration could take place to form a contract to then be in breach of it. I would probably leave it at that but for the future ask the council if the parking co has applied for planning permission for the signs under the Town and Country Planning Act. No PP, then a criminal offence committed so no contract can ever be formed as a result. this will sink any legal claim should they be stupid enough to try their luck at court

[bluebox39]

AS parking are a bunch of jokers, they'll send you a NTK which states on the back of it that your right to appeal has lapsed, which clearly breaks the rules of conduct.

 

Next they'll refer your case to Debt Recovery Plus... another bunch of jokers....

 

(im having dealings with A S & DRP too lol)

[jumbosticka]

if I did appeal as RK to the PPC, presumably, they will reject it. Do I then have appeal to the IPC or can I bypass this stage and just ignore the letters demanding payment that come through?

[armadillo71]

if I did appeal as RK to the PPC, presumably, they will reject it. Do I then have appeal to the IPC or can I bypass this stage and just ignore the letters demanding payment that come through?

 

The PPC will probably reject your appeal, yes. It is how they make money.

 

You will receive the same begging letters whether you appeal to the IPC or not. As you will not win.

 

But the thinking behind appealing to the IPC, is that the utter tosh that comes back as the adjudication, means that it would be laughed out of court....

[ericsbrother]

we recommend appealing so if the matter comes to court you can say you tried but the decision did not sit well with the law. The parking co would then have to explain away the IPC's garbled determination (see parking prankster's blog for a few choice examples, they are not the only ones though). If you dont go down that road then it leaves you in a slightly awkward spot for not taking the opportunity when offered it. However, if your appela is rejected because the IPC/IAS have a strange view about dtaes of notices and the relevance of the PoFA you can request the matter to be returned to the IAS. This all costs the patrking co money and they are back to the beginning.

[jumbosticka]

Thanks for all your insight into this. One of my friends is planning to appeal as a driver within the discounted period with the evidence of the poor signage. What are the pitfalls if she does so other than the fact that they then do not have to pay the DVLA £2.50 for the RK's details and further costs down the line?

[jumbosticka]

AS parking are a bunch of jokers, they'll send you a NTK which states on the back of it that your right to appeal has lapsed, which clearly breaks the rules of conduct. 

Next they'll refer your case to Debt Recovery Plus... another bunch of jokers....

(im having dealings with A S & DRP too lol)

 

Also as bluebox39 states he received a NTK informing him/her that the right of appeal has lapsed. Do they have any grounds on this?

[Bazooka Boo]

Thanks for all your insight into this. One of my friends is planning to appeal as a driver within the discounted period with the evidence of the poor signage. What are the pitfalls if she does so other than the fact that they then do not have to pay the DVLA £2.50 for the RK's details and further costs down the line?

 

DO NOT identify yourself as the driver, as this plays into their hands and they can go after the named driver, ALWAYS ALWAYS wait for the NTK.

 

It matters not what they claim, that you rescind the right to appeal after a certain date, it's codswallop and is nothing more than a pack of lies in order to line their pockets with money they were never owed.

[ericsbrother]

the parking prankster has written a wonderful blog about this very point with a template letter designed to make them tear their hair out. Read it and use it, the argument about being timed out is put to bed very well and you also get the opportunity to do real damage to their claim if they are dumb enough to make one

[jumbosticka]

Ok, thanks, I will read about it. However, this is where I am a little confused here as I just got an email today from Parking Prankster saying that it is wrong to say that you need to wait for the NTK and that the appeal as RK needs to go in within 21 days??

[armadillo71]

Ok, thanks, I will read about it. However, this is where I am a little confused here as I just got an email today from Parking Prankster saying that it is wrong to say that you need to wait for the NTK and that the appeal as RK needs to go in within 21 days??

 

The idea behind appealing a NTD as the RK at about that time, is so the PPC engages with the RK and hopefully forgets to send a NTK.

 

Therefore no keeper liability under the POFA.

 

But the NTK may not come anyway, or be out of time, and will almost certainly be non compliant with POFA anyhow...

[jumbosticka]

Right, that makes sense. However, does parking perpendicular to the kerb make it illegal as I was parked parallel to another resident's car which was in turn parked parallel to the kerb? My car is probably just a little bigger than a Smart car!

[ericsbrother]

Illegal? Private land is not subject to most of the provisions of the Road Traffic Acts. You must not take these bandits at their word as they arent here for any other purpose than to make money. Look up things such as the minimum size of an on-street parking bay and then do the same for an off-street one. If that doesnt clarify things look up the definition of markings for bays on private land. It is all just a whim and since the parking co dont own the land and dont have a contract with the entity that does they cant tell you to do anything, they just hope you are mug enough to believe them (although many will happlity go to court and tell lies to a judge because they just dont win their claim rather then go to the cells for contempt or fraud so there is no reason not to try it on)).

[jumbosticka]

Thank you, ericsbrother! I did not want to steam ahead until every stone had been unturned. I did look up the minimum sizes for an on-street/off-street parking and there was not much of a difference (4.8mx2.4m as as opposed to 5mx2.4m for an off-street parking bay). In any case, I also read that if the public has access to the road and footpaths of any private estate, it is classed as a public highway. Does this mean that if there are no markings for parking bays, then the way the car was parked will not matter in any case even if the council does not own the road? I just wanted to ensure that they could not try and get me in any other way as the invoice was for not showing a permit anyhow!

[ericsbrother]

What I was trying to get you to see is that there can never be a properly marked out bay as there is no such definition in law for one when it comes to private land so parking the wrong way round likewise cannot be illegal. If you want to use the incorrect size bay argument and you can but it is only an accepted code of practice rather than a legal requirement. However, the parking co will have to show that their system is somehow better then the ACOP so always something extra to go with but not good enough on its own..

[Bazooka Boo]

I just wanted to ensure that they could not try and get me in any other way as the invoice was for not showing a permit anyhow!

 

They will try any which way they can to swindle the uneducated out of their hard earned, when clamping was outlawed, the clamper's moved into the world of private parking, what didn't change was their greed or attitude, and these too will be outlawed, but not soon enough!