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Big j mac - Armtrac PCN

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Hi, this is my first post.

 

 

I am looking for advice regarding a parking charge notice I received from Armtrac services whilst on holiday in Cornwall.

 

 

I'm not sure if this is the right page to do so.

 

 

Without going into detail can someone point me in the right direction for advice.

 

 

Thanks

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Have a read of the motoring forums. There a many threads regarding the PPC


If I have been of any help, please click on my star and leave a note to let me know, thank you.

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Hello there.

 

I've altered your thread title to show what you're asking advice on. The forum guys should be along later with advice for you, in the meantime you could follow RenegadeImp's advice to read other threads. :)

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Firstly, I will change the title to reflect this is Armtrac not Amtrak.

 

Is this a notice to keeper or a windscreen ticket.

 

Are you able to post up images of the ticket (minus personal details so we can see what they are doing.

 

They are members of the IPC so they are unlikely to follow PoFA 2012 and if they don't allow an independant appeal, they will have difficulty progressing to court. (if at all)


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Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Firstly, I will change the title to reflect this is Armtrac not Amtrak.

 

Is this a notice to keeper or a windscreen ticket.

 

Are you able to post up images of the ticket (minus personal details so we can see what they are doing.

 

They are members of the IPC so they are unlikely to follow PoFA 2012 and if they don't allow an independant appeal, they will have difficulty progressing to court. (if at all)

 

Thank you for the title edit, SF. I thought it sounded like a US train service!

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Tell us the date of the event, how you got the ticket (on screen, by post) and the dates of any other correspondence as well as its content. Once we have that we can start picking holes in it and advise what to do next. Much of what you need to do is very time dependent so dont do anything until we know the facts.

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Have a read of the motoring forums. There a many threads regarding the PPC

 

Thanks for that. I will have a read

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Thank you. I got an on screen ticket in June after my permit fell of dash. I had booked a holiday for two weeks in an apartment block with allocated parking space and an electronic key for car park entry. Permit was in flat and signs everywhere 're the contract stuff and rules and regs for parking. I stupidly went down the appeals route with them only to get rejected. I did ask for copy of their authority from landowners but they refused quoting data protection laws. They did not reply to my appeal at first. I got the notice to keeper letter in July and I wrote back asking about my appeal and 're forwarded the appeal which was rejected the following day, lots of investigation then!! I won't bore u too much with this but I was looking for info on the contract side of things, planning permission for signs etc. I have now got a letter from tnc parking services dated 9th November requesting info 're driver etc and quoting pofa 2012 and the usual threat of litigation..

I have ignored previous letters but would like to know what to do now. I live in Scotland and would like to know which courts they would use. Thanks

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Can I also ask anyone the legality of the parking notice not being attached to the windscreen. The ticket was placed on my drivers side window. I was under the impression it was only legal to attach tickets to windscreen Thanks again

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AH! This changes things totally. As you are in Scotland you need do nothing. PoFA 2012 does not apply and as such they can do nothing to you. Only the driver is liable and you are not going to name the driver are you!

Ignore totally (unless you want to wind them up)

 

As for your other question. Where did you get that from? I have never heard that before. I would say that so long as the vehicle is ticketed it matters not where they place it and of course, I refer you to my previous answer.

 

Really, I should have guessed where you are from your username :lol:

 

Edit. Hold fire for more info as you were in Cornwall. I still think my advice is correct but let others comment.


If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Thanks for that Silverfox. I have read that pofa doesn't apply in Scotland. Hope someone can confirm that.

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Was the parking event in Scotland? No, so English law applies and PoFA very much so in all that the parking co and you do.

The bit about ticket on windscreen only would have applied to tickets issued on a public highway by a proper traffic warden some years ago but that is not the case now, they can hand it to you, place it on the side screen etc as long as it is "served" correctly.

So, back to the detail, WHAT WHERE THE EXACT DATES? event, day you received NTK through post , date of appeal and rejection of appeal letter etc. It is easier to beat them when they have done things wrong than to go down just the contract route as if they havent followed the protocols of the PoFA then they have no claim against you so you dont need the rest.

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Was the parking event in Scotland? No, so English law applies and PoFA very much so in all that the parking co and you do.

The bit about ticket on windscreen only would have applied to tickets issued on a public highway by a proper traffic warden some years ago but that is not the case now, they can hand it to you, place it on the side screen etc as long as it is "served" correctly.

So, back to the detail, WHAT WHERE THE EXACT DATES? event, day you received NTK through post , date of appeal and rejection of appeal letter etc. It is easier to beat them when they have done things wrong than to go down just the contract route as if they havent followed the protocols of the PoFA then they have no claim against you so you dont need the

rest.

 

Hi there, thanks for your help.

 

The ticket was issued on 7/6/2015

 

Email appeal to armtrac on 18/6/2015 (no reply)

 

Notice to keeper letter from armtrac dated 31/7/2015

 

Letter sent by me to them asking about appeal dated 6/8/2015

 

Letter from Amtrak stating no appeal received dated 12/8/2015 and also 14 days extension to pay £60

 

're transmission of appeal e mail sent 19/8/2015

 

Appeal rejected 20/8/2015

 

Various emails sent between 24th and 26th August requesting various info including asking for copy of contract with landowner and also losses incurred. All requests rejected using data protection act

 

Letter from tnc parking services dated 9/11/2015 stating they sent me a letter dated 8/11/2015 which I did not receive. This letter of the 9th gives me 28 days to give details of driver but that the driver must pay £179 and that I aS the keeper must contact them immediately or the matter will go to their litigation department.

 

Can I also add that my basic grounds of appeal was that the pcn was unfair. I won't go further than that just now but I have video evidence of another vehicle which I will keep for court if required

 

 

Thanks again

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Was the parking event in Scotland? No, so English law applies and PoFA very much so in all that the parking co and you do.

The bit about ticket on windscreen only would have applied to tickets issued on a public highway by a proper traffic warden some years ago but that is not the case now, they can hand it to you, place it on the side screen etc as long as it is "served" correctly.

So, back to the detail, WHAT WHERE THE EXACT DATES? event, day you received NTK through post , date of appeal and rejection of appeal letter etc. It is easier to beat them when they have done things wrong than to go down just the contract route as if they havent followed the protocols of the PoFA then they have no claim against you so you dont need the rest.

 

Sorry I forgot to say regarding the appeal email, I know they did not reply within the stipulated time, but they claim they did not receive it but it's strange they answered every other e mail I sent, sometimes within hours

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you appealed as the driver? If so then the PoFA by and large doesnt set time limits for their actions. However, you were wise to ask for copy of the assignment from the landowner as they will undoubtedly not have one but a contract with some middleman and this is worthless to them in a court, hence their attempts to hide behind the DPA. If you wrote and stated you were appealing as the keeper of the vehicle then they are over the 35 days time limit set for acceptance or rejection of your appeal. This is not set instone but was an ACOP so they would have to explain how their system is better than the industry's agreed standards.

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BTW, the tin pot dca cnat add anything to any debt without acourt order so it should tell you the merit of their claim. Ignore them and deal with the parking co if they can be bothered to write.

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BTW, the tin pot dca cnat add anything to any debt without acourt order so it should tell you the merit of their claim. Ignore them and deal with the parking co if they can be bothered to write.

 

Thanks for that stockbroker, I have been reading many threads and my head is spinning but a big glass of the Scottish water has helped. I think the wording of the appeal I made makes it obvious I was the driver. My intention at present is to write to the owner of the flat for their help.

 

I have several other questions to post which I hope to do later today but thanks in the meantime

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Sorry stockbroker should read ericsbrother.

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Thanks for that stockbroker, I have been reading many threads and my head is spinning but a big glass of the Scottish water has helped. I think the wording of the appeal I made makes it obvious I was the driver. My intention at present is to write to the owner of the flat for their help.

 

I have several other questions to post which I hope to do later today but thanks in the meantime

 

Why are they asking for the name of the driver if you have appealed already as the driver?

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Why are they asking for the name of the driver if you have appealed already as the driver?

 

Hi armadillo 71,

 

I did not actually say I was the driver but the inference could be made because of the wording.

 

I have just had an e mail back from the agent of the owner, basically saying that because a permit was not displayed, the parking company was only acting as contracted and they say they cannot have the ticket revoked.

 

Can I ask a few basic questions which I think I have taken from several threads.

 

1. Who has the actual power to take you to court, i.e. CCJ

 

2 is it always the case that two separate times must be quoted on the NTK

 

3. As regards signage and planning permission, do these signs actually come under the remit of advertising and therefore don't come under permitted development.

 

4 As they appear to operate under trespass laws, if I pay for a rental flat with parking space, surely I am not trespassing therefore all their rules and regulations, no permit display, parking within bays etc, are null and void.

 

5 I have also learned from the agents for the land that not all the owners of the flats are not signed up as part of the parking contract. My main gripe is about a car that displayed a note stating he was waiting on a permit arriving. The vehicle was parking in any bay and was never ticketed. Amtrak admitted in writing that they have a list of exempt vehicles, but surely one with a note stating he was waiting on a permit should not be exempt. This vehicle was like this for 12 days when Armtrac are no more than an hour's drive away and they supply the permits.

The parking attendant was obviously using discretion in this matter which is fair enough as long as it applies to all vehicles. I put it to the agents this was unfair practice but they didn't comment.

 

Any help in the above would be appreciated.

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the landowner can assign his rights to others but as this parking co was invuted in by a managemnt co they dont hve the necessary permission, a bit like me instructing an estate agent to sell my house and then the estate agent starts telling viewers what they can and cant do. Not their place.

Anyone can take anyone to court but that doesnt mean that there is a chance of winning. Very dodgy cases tend to have the judges intervene if they read the paperwork early enough and put a stop to proceedings via a case direction hearing.

Stop bothering the agents they atre the cause of your trouble and will do nothing to cut their income stream ( they dont do this out of the goodness of their hearts, bless them)

The owner of th flat wont be able to help either, it is a contractual matter and unless they have a lease that says visitors are not to be impeded in this manner it wont have anything in the lease that helps you.

The signs require planning permission, they are not there with "deemed consent" even though they will try and argue they are. Bus stops and fire escape notices have deemed consent, not adverts for unilateral contracts.

The flat owners dont have to sign up to anything, if they have allocated spaces that come with the flat the parking co are trespassing every time they interfere with their rights. It coud be that the parking co is interfering with the flat owners right to enjoy a quiet life by ticketing their visitors but that will be stretching it.

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the landowner can assign his rights to others but as this parking co was invuted in by a managemnt co they dont hve the necessary permission, a bit like me instructing an estate agent to sell my house and then the estate agent starts telling viewers what they can and cant do. Not their place.

Anyone can take anyone to court but that doesnt mean that there is a chance of winning. Very dodgy cases tend to have the judges intervene if they read the paperwork early enough and put a stop to proceedings via a case direction hearing.

Stop bothering the agents they atre the cause of your trouble and will do nothing to cut their income stream ( they dont do this out of the goodness of their hearts, bless them)

The owner of th flat wont be able to help either, it is a contractual matter and unless they have a lease that says visitors are not to be impeded in this manner it wont have anything in the lease that helps you.

The signs require planning permission, they are not there with "deemed consent" even though they will try and argue they are. Bus stops and fire escape notices have deemed consent, not adverts for unilateral contracts.

The flat owners dont have to sign up to anything, if they have allocated spaces that come with the flat the parking co are trespassing every time they interfere with their rights. It coud be that the parking co is interfering with the flat owners right to enjoy a quiet life by ticketing their visitors but that will be stretching it.

 

Thanks for that ericsbrother,

 

Any thoughts on points 2,4 and 5.

I only contacted the agents as I have no contact for the owners. I was outlining how unfair I thought this pcn was and asking them to consider revoking it.

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I can't see this going any where...

 

 

You rented an apartment for two weeks, through a holiday company/website. (?)

 

 

This came with an allocated parking space and a fob to get into the car park.

 

 

It is clear that your car was entitled to be there as on every other day nothing was stuck on the windscreen, all because of a bit of paper on the dashboard.

 

 

I would suggest that you ignore all further correspondence , except an LBA, and that would be bluster anyway.

 

 

For information purposes, could you post up redacted copies of the NTK and TNC letter please.

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I can't see this going any where...

 

 

You rented an apartment for two weeks, through a holiday company/website. (?)

 

 

This came with an allocated parking space and a fob to get into the car park.

 

 

It is clear that your car was entitled to be there as on every other day nothing was stuck on the windscreen, all because of a bit of paper on the dashboard

 

I would suggest that you ignore all further correspondence , except an LBA, and that would be bluster anyway.

 

 

For information purposes, could you post up redacted copies of the NTK and TNC letter please.

 

Thanks armadillo 71, you are now talking technology. Can someone guide me through process of uploading pictures to the site . Thanks

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