Surveillance bill includes internet records storage

[antone]

Adding to this shambles, I really didn't think that the government was planning to insist on backdoors. But apparently they are. This is fantasy politics.

 

http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-ceo-warns-of-dire-consequences-if-uk-passes-new-spy-bill/

[tobyjugg2]

Adding to this shambles, I really didn't think that the government was planning to insist on backdoors. But apparently they are. This is fantasy politics.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-ceo-warns-of-dire-consequences-if-uk-passes-new-spy-bill/

 

What will that do - have thousands of people installing privacy apps on their phones losing the real terrorists in the crowd.

Then that will be made illegal --- ad nausium

[antone]

What will that do - have thousands of people installing privacy apps on their phones losing the real terrorists in the crowd.

Then that will be made illegal --- ad nausium

 

Well, the worst case scenario would be that the mobile manufacturers will pull out of the UK market. Couldn't say I blame them. But yes, more likely will be that people will find other ways of achieving end-to-end encryption, although my reading of the law would be that the providers of these apps would also be obliged to install backdoors in order to legally offer the apps for sale/download in the UK.

 

It's sort of like demanding that the government should have a key to every house in the UK just in case the police need to serve a warrant.

[fletch70]

There is little doubt to me that it is a nasty and abhorrent piece of legislation that hopefully if passed will be blocked and slowed down by the Lords , which will of course **** off the Tories good and proper , shame that innit.

 

To be honest I can see that they are piling so much on that civil unrest may just break out, first we have the tax credit fiasco that has hurt the next hopeful for Tory leader and now this. Teresa May is possibly one of the most dangerous women in Politics this country has ever had and that includes Maggie.

 

They had no mandate for this piece of spying

[Conniff]

It's only nasty and abhorrent to terrorist like those that bombed and murdered in Paris last night. To the piecefull law abiding rest it is a godsend.

 

Give MI5 Carte Blanche to do what they are good at and tell the people nothing.

[tobyjugg2]

It's only nasty and abhorrent to terrorist like those that bombed and murdered in Paris last night. To the piecefull law abiding rest it is a godsend.

 

Give MI5 Carte Blanche to do what they are good at and tell the people nothing.

 

 

Yes we can see how effective the currently illegal snooping they are doing and trying to make legal here worked there can't we.

[Conniff]

You really are showing yourself to be very stupid here and just opposing for the sake of opposing, just making argument. Lets go down your road and get rid of the police, the armed forces, the intelligence serviced and open the borders and let the world just come and go and do just as they please.

[SabreSheep]

You really are showing yourself to be very stupid here and just opposing for the sake of opposing, just making argument. Lets go down your road and get rid of the police, the armed forces, the intelligence serviced and open the borders and let the world just come and go and do just as they please.

 

 

He made a legitimate point.

 

You have responded with hyperbole

[Conniff]

He did not respond with a legitimate point, he responded with a poke in the ribs with an attempt to flame and said absolutely nothing. He is against intelligence gathering and if what is being asked for was in operation now this attack might not have happened.

[mikeymack2002]

If we are talking about snooping here how does this affect people see here >> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401866/Draft_Interception_of_Communications_Code_of_Practice.pdf

[SabreSheep]

Can you tell me how it would of prevented this?

[Conniff]

If we are talking about snooping here how does this affect people see here >> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401866/Draft_Interception_of_Communications_Code_of_Practice.pdf

 

Interception is lawful only in the limited circumstances set out in section 1(5) of RIPA. Limited, that is of no use.

 

Can you tell me how it would of prevented this?

 

It 'could' have prevented it. There would have been communication between them and if those communication were intercepted, then it would have been dealt with before it happened.

 

Edited to add; if those communications were 'allowed' to be intercepted.

[tobyjugg2]

He did not respond with a legitimate point, he responded with a poke in the ribs with an attempt to flame and said absolutely nothing. He is against intelligence gathering and if what is being asked for was in operation now this attack might not have happened.

 

 

That is simply not true.

The intelligence services are intercepting - this is widely reported and is the reason for repeated attempts to legalise it

 

yet they failed to find, prevent or even minimise such a horrendous major attack.

 

The snoopers charter would give NOTHING significant to add to anti-terrorist efforts, but would SIGNIFICANTLY destroy liberties and freedoms that have been very hard won over many years.

 

You are spouting total rubbish Conniff. Move to a state that actually does what you promote and come back in a year (if you still can) and tell us about it.

North Korea

Saudi Arabia

Kuwait

 

Police and unnamed security services can do what they like to whoever they like

take your pick.

[SabreSheep]

I think you will find that they would evade being detected by communicating with means outside the control of being intercepted.

 

eg face to face

[tobyjugg2]

I think you will find that they would evade being detected by communicating with means outside the control of being intercepted.

 

eg face to face

 

 

I understand thats how it works a lot in the middle east - messengers on 50cc motorbikes,

Plans made and actioned with minimal contact. Pretty standard spy/terrorist cell stuff.

 

but I'm sure I could make my texts pretty unbreakably encrypted quite easily, and I cant see xda-developers or the like adding in back doors (for anyone else at least) in any apps.

 

If this charter ever gets law I will be adding full encryption capability to phone and emails for myself and all friends/family who want it.

Simple how-to's would be popping up all over.

 

 

and Conniff, stop calling folk terrorists just because they want the privacy they are entitled too in any half-way decent modern democracy.

 

It's only nasty and abhorrent to terrorist like those that bombed and murdered in Paris last night. To the piecefull law abiding rest it is a godsend.

[Conniff]

I'm sorry, but you have no idea of how it works.

[tobyjugg2]

I'm sorry, but you have no idea of how it works.

I think you are demonstrating quite effectively that you should be addressing that to a mirror Conniff.

[antone]

You really are showing yourself to be very stupid here and just opposing for the sake of opposing, just making argument. Lets go down your road and get rid of the police, the armed forces, the intelligence serviced and open the borders and let the world just come and go and do just as they please.

 

Fallacy of the excluded middle:

 

Fallacy of the Excluded Middle is a common logical fallacy. Rare in serious analysis, it often appears as a rhetorical device that encourages audiences to reject complexity in complex situations, excluding consideration of range of mid-range choices to instead consider only extreme positions. The point of the gambit is to eliminate all but two choices, one of which the speaker assumes most of the audience will prefer.

[tobyjugg2]

Fallacy of the excluded middle:

 

Yet in one of the rare events where there does seem to be only two real options, he wriggles and squirms to avoid answering

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?455197-Monty-python-justice-system&p=4820441&viewfull=1#post4820441

 

LOL

[fletch70]

I have not had the news on today but do we know exactly who the terrorists were and where they came from. If it turns out that they had made their way into France from other parts of Europe or elsewhere , no internal government organisation would have been effective. To put that into British terms, MI5 would have known nothing, it would have been up to MI6 to stop it.

[Guest]

I have not had the news on today but do we know exactly who the terrorists were and where they came from. ....

 

apparently, (5live), that group have claimed responsibility, and maybe were returnees from syria, with at least one known to the police/authorities?

[tobyjugg2]

I have not had the news on today but do we know exactly who the terrorists were and where they came from. If it turns out that they had made their way into France from other parts of Europe or elsewhere , no internal government organisation would have been effective. To put that into British terms, MI5 would have known nothing, it would have been up to MI6 to stop it.

 

Accurate definitions, but remember that a lot of this is shared and 'ping-ponged' to try to bypass National Laws, like GCHQ doing initial processing of US records and vice versa to confuse American 'unconstitutional' and UK 'illegal' issues.

 

But if they have it, one would hope that it would be shared with allies if not the Russians and Egyptians (for example).

 

and lets not forget the French have already done this snooping is legal bit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/55ef253a-f2ff-11e4-b98f-00144feab7de.html#axzz3rUH9FZrR

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/04/french-intelligence-spying-on-emails-phonecalls-newspaper/

 

Further proof it doesn't work.

 

and the showstopper:

"All those responsible for the attacks on Charlie Hebdo, they point out, were known and tracked by intelligence services before the attack."

[fletch70]

Of course there is the American Prism program which oddly Apple were accused of supplying data to but now are saying the British Bill is a bad thing. That may be due to the control of Apple shifting due to the death of Steve Jobs and a liberal Brit taking over.

[BarnOwl1]

There is little doubt to me that it is a nasty and abhorrent piece of legislation that hopefully if passed will be blocked and slowed down by the Lords , which will of course **** off the Tories good and proper , shame that innit.

 

To be honest I can see that they are piling so much on that civil unrest may just break out, first we have the tax credit fiasco that has hurt the next hopeful for Tory leader and now this. Teresa May is possibly one of the most dangerous women in Politics this country has ever had and that includes Maggie.

 

They had no mandate for this piece of spying

 

Only those who have something to hide would oppose this!

This Fletch 70? seems to me to have a very bitter an warped view of just about

every thing.

[tobyjugg2]

Only those who have something to hide would oppose this!

This Fletch 70? seems to me to have a very bitter an warped view of just about

every thing.

 

A far less bitter and warped view than someone who thought spying on everyone was both justified and necessary.

 

As has already been shown, it is NOT effective against terrorism, and here is what they actually spend their time spying on when they get 'permission' to spy on folk:

http://intelnews.org/2013/10/21/01-1358/

 

excerpt

The newspaper alleged that most targets of the NSA’s interception have no links to terrorism; instead, the US target list is primarily focused on “high-profile individuals in the politics and business domains”

 

and

 

"According to the French daily, over 70 million French telephone exchanges were intercepted by the NSA between December 10, 2012, and January 8, 2013, under an NSA collection program codenamed US-985D. The number represents over 2.5 million intercepted telephone calls per day in France."