Holiday Pay

[jimbocw]

if the hours were spread over 5 days he would be entitled to the 28 (9.6 hour) days off, paid at the rate of whatever the hourly rate is. So, the holiday pay will be the same over the full year.

If I worked 5 days on my 48 hours this would equate to 9.6 hours work daily and would be fine, my point is I work 12 hours daily. In short I believe my daily/weekly holiday pay should be the same still confused as if I take a weeks leave I would be paid 38.4 hours and I work 48 hours weekly.

[CrappoMan]

Yes, you are correct.

1 weeks holiday pay should be the same as 1 weeks worked pay. Emmzi cannot refute that.

 

Your contract states "...your holiday pay will be based on your normal weekly hours..". There is NO mention of how many days you work, only how many hours.

[jimbocw]

CrappoMan, that's how I see it but so do acas and the Employment Rights Act 1996 all use the same phrase (a weeks holiday pay should be the same as a weeks work pay, the confusion seems to be the assumption of the statutory minimum leave entitlement of 5.6 weeks, my argument is that my employer rightly or wrongly states that I am entitled to 28 days per year and on a 4 day shift pattern this equals 7 weeks leave (see earlier handbook holiday post)

[jimbocw]

My employer is paying this statutory minimum spread over 28 days at a reduced hourly rate and my grievance is that the handbook states 28 days or 7 weeks

[Emmzzi]

My employer is paying this statutory minimum spread over 28 days at a reduced hourly rate and my grievance is that the handbook states 28 days or 7 weeks

 

by all means go to tribunal and find out....

[jimbocw]

by all means go to tribunal and find out....

I am considering it but I am looking for advice and opinion hence the forum so far the answers given

have not clearly convinced me about specific points, like a weeks holiday equalling a weeks pay I had thought this phrase was indisputable but clearly you do, again thanks for giving me your points to consider.

[becky2585]

The holiday pay issue really is a pain in the backside for employment lawyers and hr at the moment!

 

For what it's worth, I think Emmzzis analysis is correct for the purpose of a weeks pay. You're entitled to a weeks pay for a weeks leave. So if you take a week, you'll receive 48 hours of pay. If you take one days leave, you'll receive 1/5th of the pay.

 

Provided you are still allowed 28 days per year, it's lawful. It would only be unlawful if you only received 22.4 leave days per year, which is the pro rata equivalent.

 

I think technically and legally speaking you should actually be entitled to 22.5 days leave x 12 hours in length. That would avoid any complications.

[jimbocw]

becky2585 you say if I take a week that I'll receive 48 hours of pay, but my point is I don't, a week's work for me is 4 working days (48 hours) and my employer is paying 38.4 hrs weekly. 5 days for me would be one week and one day.

[ericsbrother]

but you are not taking a week's holiday or you would have to book monday through to the following monday inclusive. Why dont you just ask your employer how they calculate your holiday pay and see if they come up with the same figures as we do or whther they say they have made a mistake and will be paying you a fortune in back pay etc.

Your accrual of a/l is not the same as someone working a 5 day week so you need to make sure that at the end of a year you are not hard done by as far as days off goes and that you receive the same pay as if you had worked the days taken as a/l that were your usual work days.

I bet you handbook says things like "usual" and "normal" and the terms can be varied by either agreement or by practice

[CrappoMan]

but you are not taking a week's holiday or you would have to book monday through to the following monday inclusive...

But when he books 4 days off, he is taking a FULL WEEK from his holiday entitlement, as he works 4 days a week.

 

He is entitled to a statutory minimum of 5.6 weeks holiday, not 28 days.

That means 5.6 * 48 hours, not 5.6 * 5 days.

 

You need to stop thinking in terms of 'days', instead use 'hours' in calculations.

[becky2585]

Crappo you're right. He should be paid for 268.8 hours, or 22.4 days rounded up to 22.5.

 

Jimbo, I think your employer has got it wrong!

[CrappoMan]

Yes, 22.4 days @ 12hrs per day, or 268.8hrs.

That is 5.6 working weeks @ 48hrs per week.

[jimbocw]

That's the point I have been making from the start, but the problem is my handbook/contract state that I have 28 days leave, because of this they have a conflict and cannot/will not pay me 22.4 days @ 12 hours and instead pay me for 28 days at a reduced rate of 9.6 hrs which equals the same. This is their way of avoiding paying 28 days @12 hrs as the handbook/contract state as this means paying me for 7 weeks annual leave instead of 5.6 weeks, hence the dispute. A lot of the posts made so far seem to suggest that that someone on 5 days per week for 48 hrs will be paid 5 days holiday leave at 48 hours, yet someone on 4 days per week for 48 hours will be paid 38.4 hours per 4 days holiday leave. Again this appears to go against The Employment Rights Act 1996 221

(2)Subject to section 222, if the employee’s remuneration for employment in normal working hours (whether by the hour or week or other period) does not vary with the amount of work done in the period, the amount of a week’s pay is the amount which is payable by the employer under the contract of employment in force on the calculation date if the employee works throughout his normal working hours in a week.

[Emmzzi]

You just book 5 days leave for the holiday at the reduced rate and take the week off. There's no reason why you should get 7 weeks off and other people get 5.6! Not when

 

"Holiday pay will be calculated with reference to average pay and average hours worked over the previous 12 weeks."

 

Is that not what happens? Do you instead have 7 weeks off and get less money during those 7 weeks?

[jimbocw]

Emmzzi As I see it my handbook says I get 7 weeks or 28 days based on a 4 day week, there is no mention of statutory holiday leave (5.6 weeks per year) or this leave being pro rata or based on a 5 day working week.I get 28 days holiday at 9.6 hrs. with regard to what the handbook says this, is what applies to my shift/work pattern, I work 12 hours each and every shift/day. "Where your normal hours are fixed, your holiday pay will be based on your normal weekly hours." There are 2 issues involved, this annual weekly holiday entitlement and also the legality of paying an employee a reduced hourly/daily/weekly rate of holiday pay regardless of this annual holiday entitlement.

[Emmzzi]

I disagree and I don't have any way of making it clearer to you other than the average weekly hours clause in your contract. You have failed to convince me!

 

Best go in to battle and see what a judge says.

[jimbocw]

Emmzzi, Point taken, likewise I can't make it any clearer the clause you mention is irrelevant in that even assuming it was then the average weekly hours you speak of would be 48 hours.

[sillygirl1]

Jimbocw I agree with Emmzzi, there would be little mileage in you going to a tribunal, it wouldn't change anything.

 

The best way for you to move forward here is to start a discussion with your manager and HR that they come up with an 'Annualised Hours' contract for you, and that you can have the holiday based on the length of your working day - this would depend on how their payroll system is set up. If it is set for a 'standard' 7.30 hour working 'day' then it would not work for you.