Driving No Insurance

[Mike_hawk]

Just a word of caution, if you do admit the offence it may be sensible [assuming it is yours and your sons genuine belief] to not obfuscate about what one or the other of you may or may not have known. I'd assume your son agreed that you could drive the car conditional upon you having valid insurance as I'm fairly sure the authority persists and he would have a complete defence should the need arise.

 

RTA 1988 s.143....... your son could be liable to prosecution if he knowingly permitted or caused his vehicle to be used on a road without insurance in place.

[maramar100]

 

luckily the police have shown no interest in my son at all. To be honest they were very nice at the roadside. Could have took the car i guess but because they found it was my sons and he had insurance to drive it they said weren't going to go there. I think they believe it was a genuine mistake but guess they have to do their job. I will take note of what you say re court. I will just say i honestly believed i was covered because of insurance before and since. That it was only once because of circumstances and tell them the effect any revocation will have on my health and life. Thats all i can do. If i still lose it then its a very painful lesson learned and probably the end of my driving. I can't imagine being able to go through the whole provisional, theory test, driving test again.

 

Thanks guys you've really helped a lot

[tobyjugg2]

Good fortune with your case maramar.

[JoeyJoeC]

Happened to my brother driving a neighbors car across the road to their drive after doing a repair. Assumed he was covered as both had fully comp. A bike tried to overtake him while he was turning right, brother took it to court to plead that he simply thought he was covered. He wasn't covered so he got the points and a larger fine. There are no mitigating circumstances.

[tobyjugg2]

Happened to my brother driving a neighbors car across the road to their drive after doing a repair. Assumed he was covered as both had fully comp. A bike tried to overtake him while he was turning right, brother took it to court to plead that he simply thought he was covered. He wasn't covered so he got the points and a larger fine. There are no mitigating circumstances.

 

That is undoubtedly true, but

The op cant pay the fine, so needs time

May get the option after pleading his case of a higher fine etc but no ban.

 

Not options without going to court unless someone knows differently.

 

 

The OP having a good read through the options is perhaps in order to see if he can plead his case for not being banned and time to pay without going to court. I don't know.

[Nimrod205]

Not true unfortunately. The driver is subject to the New Drivers Act (1995) which means that his licence will be "revoked" by the DVLA on accrual of 6 points within 2 years of passing his test (for the first time). This is not a decision taken by the Magistrate. He may get given the option to pay the fine by installments but I doubt that the revocation can be overturned unless the Magistrate awards less than 6 points.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Nimrod205
paragraphing

[tobyjugg2]

found this:

http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingban/drivingbannewdrivers.htm#Is_there_any_way_I_can_avoid_revocation_of_my_driving_licence

Is there any way I can avoid revocation of my driving licence?

 

Yes. Whilst revocation is automatic if you reach 6 points, if you can prevent points being endorsed, you can avoid revocation. Consequently, for some offences it may be more practical to obtain a short period of disqualification by way of a punishment instead of penalty points. Although to achieve this, you will have to attend Court, if you can convince the Court to impose a punishment that avoids penalty points, you will avoid revocation.

It is important to understand that whilst the Court has no discretion on whether revocation is imposed should you reach 6 points, it does have discretion on the punishment imposed and therefore, avoiding points will avoid revocation. This will require technical knowledge of the law so you should seek legal advice if you chose to go to Court.

[obiter dictum]

I do not mean to be the grim reaper but is not six points the default position with an IN10 Prosecution

 

What i am trying to say is it even in the magistrates power to issue say 3 points instead of 6 for an IN10 conviction?

[tobyjugg2]

I do not mean to be the grim reaper but is not six points the default position with an IN10 Prosecution

 

What i am trying to say is it even in the magistrates power to issue say 3 points instead of 6 for an IN10 conviction?

 

Even if there is, would he? Are the circumstances special enough to make a difference?

 

There are other issues as well

The cost of the court proceedings

The increase in insurance premiums after a in10

The effect on his currently valid insurance even if he doesn't lose his license in a possible additional charge for it to continue

 

The op needs to take specialist legal advice on this.

[Aretnap]

What i am trying to say is it even in the magistrates power to issue say 3 points instead of 6 for an IN10 conviction?

No. The number of points is set by statute at 6-8. The magistrates have various options - they can give him 6 points, they can give him 8 points, they can ban him, in exceptional circumstances (which don't seem to apply here) they can impose neither points nor a ban... but one thing they cannot do in any circumstances is impose 3 points.

 

If he got a very sympathetic bench there's a slim chance that they might be willing to impose a short ban rather than giving him points. That would mean that he couldn't drive for a set period, but would not need to revert to a provisional licence and retake his test when the ban was up. Magistrates have guidance NOT to do this in order to subvert the provisions of the New Drivers Act, but it seems that there are some who either don't know about this guidance, or are willing to overlook it if they hear a good enough case. That's probably the OP's best hope.

 

Or he could just accept the fixed penalty and make plans to retake his test ASAP, I've heard of people getting their licences back in a month, though it depends on how busy his local test centres are and how flexible he can be with times and dates.

[angrycrow]

Slightly off the main topic but I am concerned the OP may have dug himself a second hole.

 

OP states after being stopped and warned he would be prosecuted for driving without insurance he has then gone home and immediately taken out an insurance policy for his sons car in his own name as his sons insurance costs £3000 and was about to end. There are several potential issues with this.

 

!, OP has a conviction pending for driving without insurance (likely to result in revocation of his licence) which is a disclosable material fact and if the insurers find out that this has not been disclosed they will void the policy. At this point the OP will have to declare having a policy voided on all future insurance quotes, which will massively increase the cost of insurance on all types of insurance for life.

 

2, If the OP took out the policy in his name and put his son on as a named driver the insurers will investigate if a claim is made. This is classed as fronting the practice, "fronting", happens where a lower-risk, usually older, driver insures a vehicle in their name, although the main driver is higher risk. It is often used by well-meaning parents trying to save student offspring (or themselves) money. Fronting if discovered will also result in the policy being voided with the same repercussions as above.

[unclebulgaria67]

Slightly off the main topic but I am concerned the OP may have dug himself a second hole.

 

OP states after being stopped and warned he would be prosecuted for driving without insurance he has then gone home and immediately taken out an insurance policy for his sons car in his own name as his sons insurance costs £3000 and was about to end. There are several potential issues with this.

 

!, OP has a conviction pending for driving without insurance (likely to result in revocation of his licence) which is a disclosable material fact and if the insurers find out that this has not been disclosed they will void the policy. At this point the OP will have to declare having a policy voided on all future insurance quotes, which will massively increase the cost of insurance on all types of insurance for life.

 

2, If the OP took out the policy in his name and put his son on as a named driver the insurers will investigate if a claim is made. This is classed as fronting the practice, "fronting", happens where a lower-risk, usually older, driver insures a vehicle in their name, although the main driver is higher risk. It is often used by well-meaning parents trying to save student offspring (or themselves) money. Fronting if discovered will also result in the policy being voided with the same repercussions as above.

 

Valid points to make.

 

The OP will need to cancel the policy they have arranged and Son will need to get his own Insurance. The OP should just tell the insurers the Son is going to take over the car and future Insurance, as they have decided not to drive. They don't want to tell them exactly what happened, as the policy may get cancelled noting non disclosure.

[mikeymack2002]

You were very lucky the vehicle was not seized under s165. Here in Southend it costs you a fortune in recovery and £25.00 or so per day storage fees.

 

Unfortunately it is the responsibility of the driver to correctly insure a vehicle and make sure their own policy covers them to drive other vehicles.

 

You may need to be extra careful about going to Court if this offence happened after 13/04/2015 because the are other penalties incurred it you go to court. (Courts charge fee)

 

I often attend court on a weekly basis at Southend and the traffic court is very strict due to the drink drivers and cruisers, no insurance and the such.

 

If you do end up in court and receive a ban you must not drive ANY vehicle during that time. You must also reapply for your license back and have it in your hand before getting behind a wheel again.

 

Finally another word of warning. Should you not pay in full within the time limits your account could be sent out to an enforcement Agent for collecting. This again will seriously be a financial burden on you and could see several hundreds more pounds added to your account.

 

If you decide to go to court go and speak to the duty Solicitor on the 1st floor at the top of the stairs and it should be the 2nd door on the right as you head towards courts 7-8...

 

I don't want to worry you with this post but others have said this to you previously but it is very important to know this...

[maramar100]

Sorry i'm a woman lol just read some of the posts and thought i'd put where i'm coming from answering some of the points but obviously am coming from a perspective of total ignorance of the law in this regard other than what i've read.

 

I'm a 54 yr old woman. I took over driving my 20 year old sons car one evening when he was looking for spots to photograph for a course but began to feel unwell due to a headcold he had which made him feel a bit dizzy. He had a fully comp policy to drive his polo and i had a fully comp policy to drive my own car. I've had my license since april 2014. I was driving for around 5 mins if that and driving really slowly as wasn't sure which way to go as not an area i really knew. Police car behind me and stopped for what he said was driving suspiciously. They were very nice and new the car was insured. At no point that night was i told i was going to be prosecuted or know i would possibly have to give back my license. It wasn't said verbally and I was given no paperwork. I was simply asked to go home and look at my policy as they could not even find my insurance when they radioed in. No idea why. Anyway got home and found the sentence saying i couldn't drive other cars. As my son did not want to drive after his policy was up in two weeks (He's a student who can't afford over 2000) we decided in order to keep the car until he could in the future he would cancel his insurance and i would insure it in my name so we could park it outside and i could drive it if needed. So insured in my name within 30 mins of getting home.

 

It wasn't until the following day i got a call asking me to go to the station. That was when the paperwork and notice of prosecution was filled in and given. Although i think because they knew it was a genuine error they treated me very nicely. Then a few days later i got the offer via fixed penalty of 6 points and £300. I would immediately have to give my license and i do not have £300 to pay in full. I just don't have it. I then read online what someone else has posted that it is possible with a solicitor as i was not deliberately driving without insurance and because of the effect revoking my license would have, that a sympathetic court does have it in their power to not give 6 points and that it is well within their jurisdiction to not give them. They only have no leeway if i've already got the points.

 

I cant pay the fixed penalty as i don't have the money so that must happen to a lot of people on low incomes and only those with hundreds in the bank can make use of them. I do know that i will probably have additional financial penalty such as court costs etc but i also know magistrates courts look at your income and let you pay weekly which i will do. I am frightened. I can't get legal aid for a motoring offence but there's noi thing else i can do. Its not a ban its basically taking my license away as though i'd not had one and i would have to get a provisional again and retake test. if i retook my test and passed the six points would be on that new license but i would no longer be subject to the two year rule. The cost of insurance on declaring i had 6 points might mean i can no longer afford to drive.

 

If i can't have legal aid for motoring offences then i probably can't speak to any duty solicitor. Unless they do it for free.

 

My son does not wish to drive any more so he doesn't need insurance or to be on any insurance. The police said to me they were not interested in taking his car or looking at him as they were aware of the circumstances of the night. Its a basic driving with no insurance for me. At least in court, aside from the awful embarrassment of being there, i can say exactly what happened and hope they won't be too harsh with me.

 

To be honest this has really upset me and i doubt i'll have the heart at my age to go out and retake a test etc. I live purely on disability benefits now due to some problems i have and was only just affording the 600 a year for the insurance i had.

[mikeymack2002]

First of all you need to sort the fine out and get this paid. if you fail to pay they may take further action against you. Unfortunately it is a hard one for you to take in at the moment due to the shock of this news.

 

 

You may have your license revoked, thus putting you back with no license and you would have to reapply and retake your test as well as the theory test as well. you maybe banned for a period of time. Either way your license needs to be delivered up for the points to be added or you could face further prosecution for failing to submit your license. Again this carries the same penalty as driving otherwise in accordance of your licence. That also has a penalty of 3-6 points and a possible fine.

 

 

If your license is revoked under the new driver rules then you can reapply for it and start all over again. If you get disqualified you may have to take an extended test before it is returned to you. There are at least 3 reasons not to have your license revoked and they are

 

 

1. Pleading not guilty then they acquit you

2. Ask for special reasons not to have your license revoked Google it for more info

3.Ask the Court to think about a discretionary ban for a short period of time. Due to your disabilities that could be several weeks to several months.

 

 

Either way it is up to you to decide which way you want to go with the information and your wish to drive in the future. If you do nothing about this then you are at risk of further action being taken against you. May I gently remind you that you need to deal with any Court summons as soon as they arrive. If you are free to call in to the Magistrates Court then please do so . This is on Victoria Avenue next to the Civic Centre and Police station.

 

 

Or

 

Pop in to the CAB asap this is behind the Royals car park in Church St. They can suggest a good Solicitor but here on CAG we cannot recommend one to you....

[mikeymack2002]

As far as speaking to a duty Solicitor they can offer a quick free advice for you to take in. Have you got a good friend that can help you if this goes to Court? Normally the NIP and summons to Court are quite quick at times, please do go to the CAB asap and get as much information together regarding your disabilities and why you would need to keep your license. This should help any advisors' giving you directions to keep your license....

[mikeymack2002]

Finally if you are required to attend Court for this please take a friend with you for support. If you do go by yourself please take the bus and do not drive there as you may be banned. If so you must not drive your car at all. The ban is immediate and for what ever time the Court decides. Then if you are banned you may still be able to keep full entitlement once it is over. You must also not drive once the ban is over until you have reapplied for your license back and that you have it physically in your hands.

 

 

You can check your entitlement to drive here at any time please see here https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence follow the steps as needed.

[Migster]

It sounds as though you will soon have 2 x cars that no one will be using and 2 x insurance policies that are no longer needed. If you need to raise some money to pay this £300 FPN rather than go to court (which will doubtless be more expensive), couldn't you sell one of the cars and cancel the insurance (for a refund)?

[maramar100]

Hi mikey ty for the help. I'm not answering the offer of a fixed penalty of 6 points and a 300 fine. I don't have to answer that unless i accept it. I have 28 days to respond and if i don't it will be passed along for a court date. Thats what I'm doing. I don't have to pay the fixed penalty fine unless i accept it which i don't. I'm not sure what directions to which court you are referring to. Its not the one where i live in Devon. Mines in a street called St Andrews and nowhere near a police station. Also i'm not selling any cars to pay a fine and have no say in whether my son sells his car or not.

 

Thanks guys. I will not respond to offer and wait instead for court. I will live with revocation of license if it happens but want my chance to at least explain what happened to a court and try to not get the points. I accept the chances are low but if i accept the fixed penalty they are zero. I have all the info i need thanks to everyone. I'll post when i've been to court and let you know the result.

[mikeymack2002]

Good luck with your case. Sorry I thought you were from Southend...

[maramar100]

Thank you mikey. Am scared stiff but i have to at least try. I hope i get the chance to explain what happened in court. It happened and i will accept the punishment but just need to be able to speak at least.

[CrappoMan]

If you can get some evidence, maybe from your doctor, that loss of your licence would be detrimental to your wellbeing, or some other reason, you might be able to make a case to the judge for exceptional circumstances and they might not revoke your licence. It is a long shot but it is worth trying.

[Raykay]

Revocation of a licence is an administrative matter by the DVLA, not a court.

[CrappoMan]

The court can use its discretion to award less points so as to avoid an automatic revocation, or impose a short disqualification. The point being that it is not a foregone conclusion.

[Raykay]

For no insurance the endorsement is obligatory 6 - 8 points (or disqualification), Sch.2, Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.