Driving No Insurance

[maramar100]

Hi

 

I feel a bit silly at the moment but need some advice if possible please.

 

I'm 54 and only got my license in April 2014.

 

I have a few problems such as social phobia and other things

 

was advised by people that having my own car would help me get out of the house more etc and be able to lead more of a life

 

i tended to rarely leave the house as i cannot use public transport or walk where there are other people (I know i'm weird )

 

I did this and was so chuffed when i passed first time.

I got a car with comprehensive insurance which allowed me to drive other cars.

 

Around 6 months after that my oldest son bought me a newer car and i got new insurance which was comprehensive.

 

Last week i was out with my teenage son at night in his small car.

He's had his license for around a year.

We were out taking photographs of various things for a course he's on.

 

He started feeling a bit unwell and so i took over and was going to drive us home.

 

A few minutes later we were stopped by the police as they said i was driving suspiciously.

I was simply driving slowly trying to work out the best way home as its not an area i'm familiar with.

 

They saw that the car was insured with my son but asked under which insurance was i driving.

I said under my cars comprehensive insurance.

They then said that not all comprehensive lets you drive other cars. A fact i didn't know.

 

They let me go with my son driving and asked me to double check my policy and call them when i got home.

I found my policy and in the small print was a sentence saying i could not drive other cars.

 

I immediately called them and told them what it said.

Also within 10 minutes of getting home and finding this out i took out a policy for the car in my name as my sons was due to run out and as a student he could not afford to pay the nearly £3000 policy to renew anyway and it allows him to keep the car on the drive until he can afford to insure it himself.

 

The next day i got a call asking me to go to the station where forms where filled out and i was issued a traffic offense report ticket.

 

Yesterday i got an offer of a fixed penalty of 6 points and £300.

This will mean i lose my license and my life will severely curtailed as its the only way i can leave the house.

 

It says if i don't accept i can go to court and plead guilty or not guilty.

It also says at the top 'i refer to the traffic offence report ticket that was issued to you at the roadside'

This is not correct.

 

The police simply wrote in a notebook and asked me to phone them later. I was issued nothing official at the roadside and was given this paperwork the following day at the station where it was filled out in front of me.

 

I was also only cautioned at the police station the following day

Does this fact have any impact on anything?

 

Also why have they said it was issued at roadside when it was filled in and issued at the station a day later?

 

My point after the long ramble is whether or not i would be wasting my time going to court and if i have any mitigating circumstances at all that could lead a court to not giving me 6 points. A fine, a course,

 

anything else would be ok as i realise the law was broken, even though i'd struggle with a fine it would be better than losing my license.

I have 28 days to accept or not.

 

Have looked online and seems to say i can't get legal aid for a motoring offence so have no support in this.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

I genuinely thought i was covered to drive it.

I paid £1100 for my comprehensive policy on the other car.

 

Thanks

Edited October 7, 2015 by maramar100

[obiter dictum]

I would wait for more replies but i would take the out of court settlement

 

Having no insurance is a strict liability offence. Either you had insurance or you did not. If not you are automatically Guilty, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid

 

The only defence is that you were using the vehicle in the course of your employment and that you neither knew, nor had any reasons to believe, that there was no policy of insurance in force. Same goes if you were to hire a car

[maramar100]

Thanks for replying.

 

The police are saying 6 points and a fine.

That is a definite loss of license.

 

do i have anything to lose by going to court and giving the circumstances?

 

Plus should they have given me the traffic ticket that night at the roadside along with caution?

I've tried to look online and it does say that a court has no powers to not revoke a license if 6 points given but it can give other options as punishment if it chooses instead of points depending on any mitigating circumstances.

 

So fed up at my stupidity at not double checking.

Plus i do not have £300 to pay in full.

Instalments not accepted on a fixed penalty

[unclebulgaria67]

I would wait for more replies but i would take the out of court settlement

 

Having no insurance is a strict liability offence. Either you had insurance or you did not. If not you are automatically Guilty, do not pass go, do not collect 200 quid

 

The only defence is that you were using the vehicle in the course of your employment and that you neither knew, nor had any reasons to believe, that there was no policy of insurance in force. Same goes if you were to hire a car

 

Agree. I can't see any reasonable defence in court.

 

BUT do check the insurance again, to make absolutely certain you did not have driving other car cover. It would normally state this cover on the certificate of insurance.

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks for replying. But the police are saying 6 points and a fine. That is a definite loss of license. So do i have anything to lose by going to court and giving the circumstances? Plus should they have given me the traffic ticket that night at the roadside along with caution? I've tried to look online and it does say that a court has no powers to not revoke a license if 6 points given but it can give other options as punishment if it chooses instead of points depending on any mitigating circumstances. So fed up at my stupidity at not double checking. Plus i do not have £300 to pay in full. Instalments not accepted on a fixed penalty

 

I can't see any circumstances other than your Son was needing urgent medical treatment, so had to take over driving the car, to take him to hospital. As that is not the case, your assumption of driving other car insurance was wrong and you have no reasonable excuse.

 

The Police can issue ticket at roadside or later if checks are required. Can't see that being used to get off this.

 

If you go to court, they may just hit you with a bigger fine and the 6 points. But you could ask to pay in instalments.

 

The cost of future insurance, with the driving ban, points and fine, may mean it is unaffordable anyway.

[tobyjugg2]

As stated above, some comprehensive policies allow you to drive other cars not owned by you but which are insured by someone else, BUT some don't - its often an option which is deselected by default as it usually does cost extra.

 

Check very carefully and ensure you aren't mixing up references to not insured to drive other cars, but able to drive other insured cars covered 3rd party with the owners permission.

 

If your sons car is in your name for example, that would complicate it further.

Check very carefully.

[maramar100]

No it definitely says is not covered to drive other cars.

Also re the ticket its not that they gave it the next day in a station its that they have written on their letter to me for the offer of a fixed penalty ''i refer to the traffic offence report ticket that was issued to you at the roadside' Its simply not true that i was given it that night.

 

Just wondered why they wrote that.

 

Ok well thanks for the help and replies.

I'll have to go to court because i can't afford the £300 at once anyway and at least it will be a judge deciding not a policeman.

 

Thanks again

I do realise its my own fault for not triple checking but couldn't check policy till after i'd driven him home and assumed this policy would be the same as the previous and the one i have now.

 

I am concerned about the reference to being banned from driving from unclebulgaria because it isn't a driving ban i will get.

 

I will literally lose my license and have to apply for a provisional and retake my test which i think i can do right away.

 

The 6 points will then be on that license but I don't get a driving ban. (At least i don't think i do according to the police anyway and the gov website).

 

 

You've all been brilliant and replied really quickly. Thanks

Thanks

 

Thank you Toby.

 

I have rechecked and the only sentence referring to it is mixed in amongst lots of terms and conditions i should have read through.

 

It says "The driving of other cars extension is not included for any driver named on the policy.".

 

There's no other reference to driving cars that are already insured on third party anywhere. My own fault. The car is in my sons name.

[unclebulgaria67]

Thank you Toby. I have rechecked and the only sentence referring to it is mixed in amongst lots of terms and conditions i should have read through. It says "The driving of other cars extension is not included for any driver named on the policy.". There's no other reference to driving cars that are already insured on third party anywhere. My own fault. The car is in my sons name.

 

I think that means any named driver i.e additional to policyholder. Only the policyholder is covered for driving other cars. Check with the insurance company.

 

If you go to court, you will end up with other costs added e.g if Police have to attend. Check that you can pay the penalty by instalments, by phoning any helpline shown on the ticket.

[maramar100]

It says on ticket that you have to pay in full and cannot pay in instalments.

[unclebulgaria67]

What does it tell you, if you cannot pay. I suspect you can admit the offence and ask Magistrates to set instalment payments. There is probably a Magistrates form for this.

 

But do check with the insurance company if you were policyholder.

[maramar100]

I've used the contact form and see what they say. Have looked online in general though and it seems Admiral don't let you drive other cars in general so don't hold out much hope. Thanks That aside i won't accept the police penalty and will go to court because at least there its a judge handing a penalty to me and i will be allowed to pay in instalments.

 

Thanks everyone.

[obiter dictum]

Please please think what you have just said

 

You go to court and you might find you get a 12 month ban

 

If convicted, which you will be as this is a strict liabiity offence you will face up to an extra £500 in court fees on top of the original £300.

 

The law has just changed and you receive a mandatory charge for prosecution cost and victim support if you plead not guilty and are then found guilty, which you will be

 

Because of this draconian new law people are pleading guilty when they are innocent to escape this financial penalty. Going to court is the last thing you need

 

I would contact the fines oficer at the local magistrates court to get his advice on setting up a repayment plan outside of court

Edited October 7, 2015 by obiter dictum

[maramar100]

It says on the enforcement notice that you cannot pay instalments. It's pretty clear pay the fine in one go or not at all. Re the ban. I'm confused re that when most get 6 points and a £300 fine even when they deliberately drove with no insurance on the car at all. Are you now saying the 6 points and a fine are not likely and that a 12 month ban for a first offence when i did not knowingly drive with no insurance is likely? I'd better find a solicitor quick then and get some advice because thats the first time anywhere i've heard i'm likely to get a 12 month ban. I'm not going to plead not guilty. I simply want a chance to let the court know the circumstances and be able to pay in instalments. Thanks anyway. Think i need to see a solicitor. what would a victim support payment be? Not sure who the victim is

 

I thought going to court would be better so that i didn't lose my license right away which means i cant drive anymore anyway. But also earlier i found this on the driving ban website which says re new drivers:

 

Whilst revocation is automatic if you reach 6 points, if you can prevent points being endorsed, you can avoid revocation. Consequently, for some offences it may be more practical to obtain a short period of disqualification by way of a punishment instead of penalty points. Although to achieve this, you will have to attend Court, if you can convince the Court to impose a punishment that avoids penalty points, you will avoid revocation.It is important to understand that whilst the Court has no discretion on whether revocation is imposed should you reach 6 points, it does have discretion on the punishment imposed and therefore, avoiding points will avoid revocation. This will require technical knowledge of the law so you should seek legal advice if you chose to go to Court.

[obiter dictum]

What i am saying is if you take this to court you will be found Guilty through strict liability and face an extra financial penalty

 

The courts have no leeway as the magistrates hands are bound through statute

 

Have a chat to the fines officer at your local magistrates court for advice

[maramar100]

I'm really confused. The fixed penalty notice address is the conditional offer unit in southend. It also says on the form " Payments by instalments will NOT be accepted under any circumstances. I have no choice but to go to court. I'll get a solicitor and let him argue for me and try to avoid the points if possible. If not at least i can pay bit by bit. I simply don't have £300. I'm really confused now so best to speak with a solicitor although no idea what that cost will be. The above post says courts do have discretion on whether or not to give points. They just can't stop the revocation of license once points are given. Now i'm worried about a 12 month ban that's not been mentioned before for circumstances like mine.

 

Ok thank you. More worried than ever now but have no choice but to go to court.

 

Thanks guys. Am off now but am very grateful for the information.

[obiter dictum]

Speak to the fines officer at your local magistrates

 

He will know the system better than any of us

[dacouc]

Please do not look at the policy wording to see if you are covered to drive other cars.

 

The only document that is relevant to your situation is the "Certificate of Insurance" this is the legal document that confirms your cover for the police and courts.

 

The relevant wording is normally situated in the same section of the Certificate that confirms who is covered to drive. (It's probably in section 5 of your Admiral Certificate)

 

The wording you're looking for is along the lines of "The policyholder may also drive private cars not belonging to him"

 

Read your certificate carefully and report back whether it has wording to the above effect, it's what is shown on the Certificate that is what matters to the police / courts.

[tobyjugg2]

Please do not look at the policy wording to see if you are covered to drive other cars.

 

The only document that is relevant to your situation is the "Certificate of Insurance" this is the legal document that confirms your cover for the police and courts.

 

The relevant wording is normally situated in the same section of the Certificate that confirms who is covered to drive. (It's probably in section 5 of your Admiral Certificate)

 

The wording you're looking for is along the lines of "The policyholder may also drive private cars not belonging to him"

 

Read your certificate carefully and report back whether it has wording to the above effect, it's what is shown on the Certificate that is what matters to the police / courts.

 

Absolutely cracking good point dacouc.

 

Mine is a small line on the one page certificate (or statement) of insurance

small line in some columns, near the bottom says:

Driving other cars Allowed

[renegadeimp]

before you go to court or anything like that, can i suggest, instead of reading the terms of your insurance, you actually contact your insurance provider and get the full accurate statement from them. Then you will know 100% for peace of mind.

[tobyjugg2]

before you go to court or anything like that, can i suggest, instead of reading the terms of your insurance, you actually contact your insurance provider and get the full accurate statement from them. Then you will know 100% for peace of mind.

 

Good point, but haven't we all dealt with clueless imps in various CS depts.

Mind you if they say yes, get them to fax/mail confirmation on headed paper if it clashes with what cert of ins says, if they say no, still check certificate of insurance as dacouc suggests just in case.

 

We just need a yes from Elephant somewhere.

[dacouc]

Good point, but haven't we all dealt with clueless imps in various CS depts.

Mind you if they say yes, get them to fax/mail confirmation on headed paper if it clashes with what cert of ins says, if they say no, still check certificate of insurance as dacouc suggests just in case.

 

We just need a yes from Elephant somewhere.

 

Spot on.

 

Asking an Insurer's customer service staff about Driving Other Cars cover is very hit and miss due to the varying degrees of their knowledge.

 

The only thing that matters is whether the Certificate of Insurance says you are covered to drive other cars, the Certificate is a legal document that is governed by the Road Traffic Act as to what information it can contain and that the information it contains is what you're covered for in respect to damage to third parties.

 

What the policy booklet and the Insurance company say about DOC is largely irrelevant as the court should only take notice of what the Certificate of Insurance says is covered.

 

The only exception to this is what's known as a "Letter of Indemnity" which the Insurer can issue in rare circumstances, it's basically a letter from the Insurer confirming that they would have covered the driver against third party claims on X date and X time (Normally the time the police stopped you). Such a letter may be issued for instance when you or the Insurer have entered the the wrong registration number on the Certificate so the police are looking to prosecute as the Certificate does not confirm you're covered but the Insurer felt they were on cover.

 

In summary, it's well worth ringing the Insurer to check as a) you may be covered b) they may make a mistake and confirm you're covered c) they may HAVE made a mistake and feel you were covered, however if they do not confirm you're covered then check the Certificate as this is the relevant document that confirms whether you were covered or not

[maramar100]

I've contacted them and they have confirmed i was not covered to drive other cars Took me 54 years to finally get a license. 30 minutes to lose it My own fault i'm just really upset about it. I'll go to court plead guilty and tell them all circumstances and hope for the best. I have to because i need to pay bit by bit either way.

 

Thanks very for the huge amount of help. Very grateful. Wish me luck

[dacouc]

I've contacted them and they have confirmed i was not covered to drive other cars Took me 54 years to finally get a license. 30 minutes to lose it My own fault i'm just really upset about it. I'll go to court plead guilty and tell them all circumstances and hope for the best. I have to because i need to pay bit by bit either way.

 

Thanks very for the huge amount of help. Very grateful. Wish me luck

 

Don't take their word for it, check your Certificate of Insurance

[maramar100]

I've checked the policy and the only reference anywhere on it to this is one sentence that says 'The driving of other cars extension is not included for any driver named on the policy.' its not mentioned anywhere else. I called and they said i am not covered. I looked online and it seems Admiral don't cover people to drive other cars. At least most i've looked at said they don't.

[dacouc]

I've checked the policy and the only reference anywhere on it to this is one sentence that says 'The driving of other cars extension is not included for any driver named on the policy.' its not mentioned anywhere else. I called and they said i am not covered. I looked online and it seems Admiral don't cover people to drive other cars. At least most i've looked at said they don't.

 

Admiral do provide cover for driving other cars to most of their customers but do not offer it for certain risk profiles. Google "Admiral Driving other cars FAQ" and you will find their website explaining it.

 

Please do not look at your policy, you need to look at the Certificate of Insurance and most likely section 5 of the Certificate which will give you the definitive answer