Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

Ban political debate in bear garden ?


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3177 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I am not in favour of stopping any debates and to allow freedom of speech. But there have been a number of threads where debates have become silly arguments. The threads then get closed after they have run their course.

 

People are entitled to opinions, even if you don't agree with them. If you don't agree, then just post a counter argument or ignore. No point attacking someone for their opinion, as you are not likely to change their minds.

 

I am not sure political threads should be encouraged on CAG. It is principally a consumer advice site. The Bear Garden was i think intended for general chat about interests, current affairs. There are specific internet forums that cover politics.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it annoying when threads are closed if things get heated and passions run high, "If they eyes offend thee,pluck them out" in other words don't read the thread, ignore it, if it offends.

Much better in my opinion to create a let off steam sub forum as a place to debate emotive issues and a place to move for posts in any forum if they deemed to be getting heated rather than stifle debate however offensive it might be, the right to offend is a sign of a working democracy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact is though that when a counter argument degenerates into personal attack then it's beyond blowing off steam. State your case, counter any points that are made that don't align with yours and move on. Unfortunately it's gone beyond that recently with people nipping at each other's heels to try to add weight to their points. It's at that point the threads ought to be heavily moderated or closed because this isn't a 'banter' forum but one for serious, adult, mature debate. Lose that maturity and we might as well be 4chan.

My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You will notice of late that I have been trying to steer discussion away from personal attacks as much as possible however I work full time and often return to a thread full of bile that needs clearing out.

 

Whilst the sub forum idea is great in principal sadly emotions would not remain there. We already see that emotional conflicts cross threads, they would cross forums as well. So It is in everybody's best interests to not encourage an area where normal Site rules would not apply.

 

Also a gentle reminder, that whilst we try to retain as much free speech as possible, this forum is not a democracy :D

 

You have all seen and stated the answer, keep debates to the point and use factual information to prove or disprove. Attack the position a person holds is fine, just do not attack the person personally.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it annoying when threads are closed if things get heated and passions run high, "If they eyes offend thee,pluck them out" in other words don't read the thread, ignore it, if it offends.

 

I agree fully, but there is a difference between passion heated debate and trolling.

 

Despite this hub very clearly not being 'a democracy' in Sabresheeps words, or 'fair and unbiased' in my words I think passionate, even somewhat heated debate should be welcomed, whereas trolling should be penalised.

 

The problem is what the dictators (its not a democracy) define as each will appear to be biased to anyone who does not agree.

If the site representatives get it wrong there will be very little intelligent debate here, or debate by very few people.

 

I would think if it was 'got right' a site of this size age and expected prominence should have hundreds of active debaters with opinions. If the 'site' practice and policy has got it wrong, there would just be a few handfuls of people, if they get it really wrong, there would only be a handful.

 

 

 

addendum

I think too many threads are closed before they have actually run their course, seemingly based on (more excused by) undressed trolling of the thread rather than the thread or even issue actually having run its course unclebulgaria.

The Tory Legacy

Record high: Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Crumbling: Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes

with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

 

 “Do I want to spend every Friday for the next five years in Clacton?”

Farage, Feb 2024 talking smack about the Peninsula town

.. before he decided he wanted their votes

Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is that any political threads will attract trolls, who don't want a debate, but to simply try to insist that their view must be correct. They then get annoyed when this does not happen, threads go on and on, covering the same points.

 

The question is probably wrong in mentioning ban, but do people want the Bear Garden to be a politics free zone ?

 

If there is a way of setting up a thread with a poll, perhaps people can vote.

 

I don't personally mind political debate, but many people don't like it or would prefer there to be places which are politics free.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that some threads are closed before they're at a natural end but the issue, as you quite rightly point out, is those that choose to troll through a thread and openly mock and abuse others. In my most humble of opinion, it's the rooting out of those few users that will prevent any such ban or need for excessive moderation. Some of the other forums I use utilise a warning system (which CAG may also, I've not seen it) and then pre-moderation of posts for persistent offenders.

 

You're also right on the number of contributors, the one thing that always strikes me is the number of visitors to the site in comparison with registered users. Quite how we convince those 'lurking' in the background to sign up and join in is a matter for further discussion.

 

The other issue we face is mass political apathy, most people just don't care or know about politics; conversely those that do hold very strong opinions and beliefs. We've seen it in the last week with some of the posts that were quickly brought to a conclusion that even site team members will hold and post about their opinions in a manner that may inflame others, it's then dealing with the fall-out as tempers flare beyond sensible debate that has to be the most challenging aspect.

My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is that any political threads will attract trolls, who don't want a debate, but to simply try to insist that their view must be correct. They then get annoyed when this does not happen, threads go on and on, covering the same points.

 

Which gives limited options

 

Ban political debate (define political debate, define issues without a political element, define a political opinion post)

 

Close the thread (the trolls say hahahahaha - and continue what they are doing - everyone else leaves)

 

Just Delete 'troll' posts (Staff are biased dictators - and not just by trolls - and some undoubtedly are in my view (LOL))

 

Warn trolls, warning flag troll posts and make them amend them (flag remains on amended post showing who trolls in staff opinion) - (awkward, a lot of staff work, - but perhaps the best option longterm)

 

 

Why should staff NOT take the easy option of just deleting posts they (or they and a pal) dont like:

A site like this depends on financial support, which relies on commitment, gratitude and/or good will of donators, which is unquestionably increased by involvement with the site and decreased by thinking a site is a biased platform for a limited few.

... Else where is the justification for this site to be considered any better or more than (or even as effective as) any 'ask' site?

 

 

qualifier:

"and decreased by thinking a site is a biased platform for a limited few."

 

- unless the limited few are funding it of course

The Tory Legacy

Record high: Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Crumbling: Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes

with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

 

 “Do I want to spend every Friday for the next five years in Clacton?”

Farage, Feb 2024 talking smack about the Peninsula town

.. before he decided he wanted their votes

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which gives limited options

 

Ban political debate (define political debate, define issues without a political element, define a political opinion post)

 

Close the thread (the trolls say hahahahaha - and continue what they are doing - everyone else leaves)

 

Just Delete 'troll' posts (Staff are biased dictators - and not just by trolls - and some undoubtedly are in my view (LOL))

 

Warn trolls, warning flag troll posts and make them amend them (flag remains on amended post showing who trolls in staff opinion) - (awkward, a lot of staff work, - but perhaps the best option longterm)

 

 

Why should staff NOT take the easy option of just deleting posts they (or they and a pal) dont like:

A site like this depends on financial support, which relies on commitment, gratitude and/or good will of donators, which is unquestionably increased by involvement with the site and decreased by thinking a site is a biased platform for a limited few.

... Else where is the justification for this site to be considered any better or more than (or even as effective as) any 'ask' site?

 

 

qualifier:

"and decreased by thinking a site is a biased platform for a limited few."

 

- unless the limited few are funding it of course

 

"staff" as you so quaintly identify moderators are unpaid volunteers - they also have their own day jobs/families/ lives. They do not need to spend what time they do have for CAG refereeing posters who want to rant and squash debate with their one liners or personal abuse. Nor do they need to accept some of the rather unfair accusations levelled at them.

 

Deleting posts or closing threads is usually a last option and we do not take any pleasure from doing it at all.

 

The Bear Garden has always been allowed a bit more leeway in what is posted - however it would seem that some members are starting to take advantage of that.

 

When disruptive posts carry over onto regular threads, frightening off those who come here for help then they will be unapproved/deleted and the poster warned/banned.

 

I would like to think that some of the rather aggressive posting in the Bear Garden is not typical of the poster and that they are simply taking advantage of the anonymity of the forums.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Slippery slope. Once people start posting political stuff, it gets noticed and it attracts more people. CAG might prefer to avoid. Means more moderator time and takes away from CAG being about consumer advice.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

Link to post
Share on other sites

Slippery slope. Once people start posting political stuff, it gets noticed and it attracts more people. CAG might prefer to avoid. Means more moderator time and takes away from CAG being about consumer advice.

 

Valid point, and if that is the site admins view it seems the bear garden should be removed or anything judged a 'political thread' should be immediately deleted without explanation,

else we are back to post 8.

 

 

... mind you - aren't consumer rights a political issue?

The Tory Legacy

Record high: Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Crumbling: Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes

with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

 

 “Do I want to spend every Friday for the next five years in Clacton?”

Farage, Feb 2024 talking smack about the Peninsula town

.. before he decided he wanted their votes

Link to post
Share on other sites

When disruptive posts carry over onto regular threads, frightening off those who come here for help then they will be unapproved/deleted and the poster warned/banned.

 

As they should be in my opinion if that black and white.

 

I haven't seen any real examples of that occurring as a practice (the trolling other threads outside of bear garden), so I can perhaps assume that the squashing of them must be occurring very effectively.

I do appear to be very recently seeing a drop in the 'one liner' blatantly (in my view) disruptive posts.

 

I have seen some very questionable 'advice' posted in various threads by none-staff (I use 'staff' intended to mean 'official' representatives of this site), but have only really noticed dx and bankfodder actually challenge some of those. Of course I haven't read or even glanced at anything like all posts.

Even my own personal opinion on whether those dubious/clearly incorrect 'advice' posts should be deleted or at least flagged is very unclear to me.

The Tory Legacy

Record high: Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Crumbling: Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes

with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

 

 “Do I want to spend every Friday for the next five years in Clacton?”

Farage, Feb 2024 talking smack about the Peninsula town

.. before he decided he wanted their votes

Link to post
Share on other sites

Obvious incorrect advice posts should surely be challenged - in my knowledge area I'm happy to correct or even be corrected if I'm not up to date on something.

 

Regarding political debate - I enjoy debate BUT there are people who post who have no idea how to debate, they just want to ram their views home and will belittle other posters, engage in personal attacks along the way. They don't explain or back up their points. I'm curious and interested in how people who have views different to mine come to hold those views and what sources they use etc.

 

But this is not how debate happens on the forum.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

Link to post
Share on other sites

Obvious incorrect advice posts should surely be challenged - in my knowledge area I'm happy to correct or even be corrected if I'm not up to date on something.

 

Regarding political debate - I enjoy debate BUT there are people who post who have no idea how to debate, they just want to ram their views home and will belittle other posters, engage in personal attacks along the way. They don't explain or back up their points. I'm curious and interested in how people who have views different to mine come to hold those views and what sources they use etc.

 

But this is not how debate happens on the forum.

 

I agree and I keep saying it.

Attack the position not the person. Back your point up with evidence.

Discredit others evidence by all means but use only other sources of information to do so.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all for debate, but my reason for staying on cag and volunteering for so long is because I want to be a part of helping people with their problems. I don't want to spend my leisure time refereeing people who don't seem able to have a debate without turning it into a slanging match.

 

I'm all for free speech, debate, discussion and you'll rarely see me moderate posts or close threads, but neither will I tolerate abuse.

 

That said if someone is facing court tomorrow or about to lose their home, then I won't be wasting my time breaking up squabbles in the bear garden if people can't walk away and ignore trolls who are winding them up.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all for debate, but my reason for staying on cag and volunteering for so long is because I want to be a part of helping people with their problems. I don't want to spend my leisure time refereeing people who don't seem able to have a debate without turning it into a slanging match.

 

I'm all for free speech, debate, discussion and you'll rarely see me moderate posts or close threads, but neither will I tolerate abuse.

 

That said if someone is facing court tomorrow or about to lose their home, then I won't be wasting my time breaking up squabbles in the bear garden if people can't walk away and ignore trolls who are winding them up.

 

:clap2: Well said.

 

 

:argue: Argue No Debate Yes.

 

 

:gossip: Gossip Yes.

 

I am out of here. :peep:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun yes! Politics NO! Games, YES, argue, NO

R.I.P my beautiful grey ghost, gone but never forgotten, taken so suddenly, 04/07/2004 ~ ~ 02/03/2017

Gone but never forgotten,Little Miss Sunshine, Alisha Marie. 15/12/2005 ~ ~ 13/02/2006

Our  beloved Dalmatian Jazz,  gone to join Wal at Rainbow Bridge, hope you are now pain free .  20/9/2005 ~ ~ 24/3/2019

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...