Jump to content



Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 1251 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Some confusion about this It seems, so I thought I would just post a quick guide.

 

The three stages of enforcment for none HCEO debts are outlined in the taking control of goods regulations.

 

The compliance fee stage is due on the receipt of the warrant by the EA or on the date of the NOE depending on the type of debt

 

The enforcement stage fee is due on attendance of the EA at the debtors "relevant premises"

 

The sale fee is due as per section 5 of the regulations:

 

“the sale or disposal stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale, or from commencing preparation for sale if the sale is to be held on the premises, until the completion of the sale or disposal (including application of the proceeds and provision of the information required by regulation 14).”

 

John Kruse explains the situation here as follows

 

"As fees run from the “first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale” various predicating factors seem to be indicated. Of course, there must have been previous levy by which goods were secured on the premises: only ‘controlled goods’ can be sold"

 

This is clear from the legislation and means that whilst goods can be removed at first attendance(for storage) they cannot trigger a sale fee, as the action would still be at the enforcment stage.

The sale fee can only be applied to goods which have been previously taken under control

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 178
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

This is important because it forms one the basic protections in the act. it encourages the bailiff to take goods under control and give the debtor chance to remedy before they are sold.

 

Interesting to note that should goods be taken into storage, subsequently the sale fee would be payable on the visit to remove goods from there to place of sale. in section 5b (below) the enforcment stage states that the enforcement stage fee is due opn attendance to the "premises", this is defined as the relevant premises, (ie the usual residence or place of work). Collecting goods from storage would not be collecting from premises when goods are in storage.

 

This is corrected be replacing the term premises with the wider term "property" (section 5c)

 

(b)the enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

©the sale or disposal stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale, or from commencing preparation for sale if the sale is to be held on the premises, until the completion of the sale or disposal (including application of the proceeds and provision of the information required by regulation 14).

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should also state that the quote from Jk in the first post was from his briefing note 29 which was issued in July last year.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
This is important because it forms one the basic protections in the act. it encourages the bailiff to take goods under control and give the debtor chance to remedy before they are sold.

 

Interesting to note that should goods be taken into storage, subsequently the sale fee would be payable on the visit to remove goods from there to place of sale. in section 5b (below) the enforcment stage states that the enforcement stage fee is due opn attendance to the "premises", this is defined as the relevant premises, (ie the usual residence or place of work). Collecting goods from storage would not be collecting from premises when goods are in storage.

 

This is corrected be replacing the term premises with the wider term "property" (section 5c)

 

(b)the enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

©the sale or disposal stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale, or from commencing preparation for sale if the sale is to be held on the premises, until the completion of the sale or disposal (including application of the proceeds and provision of the information required by regulation 14).

 

Just for clarity

 

The point here is that the term "premisses" is a narrow term which relates only to the relavant premisses of the debtor, whereas property is all embracing as it refers to anywhere the goods are secured.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
What happens when the debtor refuses to sign a CGA?

 

Goods can still be secured on the premises, or removed for storage elsewhere,but not for sale.

 

The point is as far as the fees are concerned that the sale stage fee is invoked,"from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale". So there can be no sale fee when the EA makes the initial call (enforcment stage) because he cannot be visiting to collect goods for sale etc.(he doesn't yet know what goods are to be taken under control)

 

He cannot sell what he does not yet have title to. When he has taken control of them, he would not have called to take goods for sale, for that he would have to go away and call again. This is why the section is worded so specifically.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

There adtually more to this, in that the section5© also implies that arrangments will have been made prior to the enforcment visit for the sale to take place.

 

I was reticent to post any more from John as it was from a subscribed document, however many of these are now available on the web and it was last year, so I am sure he would not mind.

 

"The key question is whether a removal was for reasons of storage or for transporting goods to the place of sale. If the former is the intention, the agent is still in the enforcement stage and no sale fee at all will be permitted as only the enforcement fee will be exigible; if the latter, as outlined previously, a valuation must follow within seven days of the removal as an ineluctable concomitant (see Bulletin 27 pp.3-4).

 

As fees run from the “first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale” various predicating factors seem to be indicated. Of course, there must have been previous levy by which goods were secured on the premises".

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just found this link. This seems to suggest that this council's interpretation is that the sale stage can start (thus the fee be charged) if someone doesn't sign a CGA.

 

Sale or disposal stage

 

If you:

1. Refuse to sign the Controlled Goods Agreement the enforcement agent can take your goods whilst he/she is at your property.

2. Do not pay as agreed and you have signed a Controlled Goods Agreement, the enforcement agent may enter your property, by force if necessary, to take the goods listed.

Either way, you will be charged a fixed fee of £110 plus 7.5 per cent of any balance due. You may also have to pay additional costs for the sale of your goods.

It is an offence to stop an enforcement agent from carrying out his duties.

 

 

That seems the approach of one council on a quick Google. If removed for storage they'd be charged disbursements, but this is clearly stating they can be taken for sale if a CGA is not signed, and the fee will be chargeable.

 

The council may, of course, have got it wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed. I know that there is also a problem with many HCEOs in that this is not fully understood.

 

At the end on the day there must be three disparate stages to the enforcment, otherwise the act would just describe two.

 

The debtor must be given two chances to settle the debt before additional fees are added, one is the compliance, one is the enforcment. If the goods were taken for sale at enforcement it make a nonsense of the whole structure.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess they argue the debtor had the chance to resolve things at the Enforcement Stage with a CGA, refused to sign, so moved straight on to the Sale Stage incurring a further £110 fee.

 

I have to say it's difficult to see fault with that reasoning. There would have been a clear Enforcement Stage, terminating with the refusal to sign, thus triggering the removal of goods for sale.

 

It's pretty clear the debtor is being deliberately uncooperative and the chances are that this would be the sort of person who had received none of the letters, no NOE, etc.... At the end of the day the person will only be given so many chances.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess they argue the debtor had the chance to resolve things at the Enforcement Stage with a CGA, refused to sign, so moved straight on to the Sale Stage incurring a further £110 fee.

 

I have to say it's difficult to see fault with that reasoning. There would have been a clear Enforcement Stage, terminating with the refusal to sign, thus triggering the removal of goods for sale.

 

It's pretty clear the debtor is being deliberately uncooperative and the chances are that this would be the sort of person who had received none of the letters, no NOE, etc.... At the end of the day the person will only be given so many chances.

 

The argument is detailed above.

 

As for the controlled goods agreement. The enforcement stage purpose is to take control of goods, the control of goods agreement is merely one of those methods, the others being to secure goods on the premises the other being to remove and secure, these are defined in the act, the price of not agreeing to sign is to have the goods secured and thus not to to be able to use them.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
The argument is detailed above.

 

As for the controlled goods agreement. The enforcement stage purpose is to take control of goods, the control of goods agreement is merely one of those methods, the others being to secure goods on the premises the other being to remove and secure, these are defined in the act, the price of not agreeing to sign is to have the goods secured and thus not to to be able to use them.

 

If he/she cannot get in to Take Control of Goods, then they cannot add any sales fee at any stage, as there will be no Controlled Goods Order signed anyway surely?.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

 

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

Link to post
Share on other sites

True enough BN.

 

Huntingdonshire District Council obviously feel you can go straight from Enforcement to Sale as well. This is directly from their website,

 

"The Enforcement Agent has no legal duty to make an arrangement with you, and once the case reaches the Enforcement Stage they can immediately remove your possessions for sale at auction to pay your debt."

 

I wonder how many other councils think similarly. These are the first two I've come across where it is clearly outlined. A further one said if there was not co-operation at Enforcement Stage they would recall the debt and apply to the court for you to be imprisoned. That's tough talk for a public website!

Link to post
Share on other sites
True enough BN.

 

Huntingdonshire District Council obviously feel you can go straight from Enforcement to Sale as well. This is directly from their website,

 

"The Enforcement Agent has no legal duty to make an arrangement with you, and once the case reaches the Enforcement Stage they can immediately remove your possessions for sale at auction to pay your debt."

 

I wonder how many other councils think similarly. These are the first two I've come across where it is clearly outlined. A further one said if there was not co-operation at Enforcement Stage they would recall the debt and apply to the court for you to be imprisoned. That's tough talk for a public website!

 

Wait until the first clearly vulnerable debtor wholly reliant on benefits with a disability is imprisoned by Huntingdonshire Council should make Scoop at least, if not the Heil, Torygraph, and Grauniad.

 

They have to get in to take control if no car. Wonder if the magistrate will cross examine the Council Officer to ascertain if all avenues explored such as AOB or AOE before committing that debtor to prison? In theory thay can go straight to sale on an initial entry if there are sufficient exempt goods and the debtor refuses, but prison depends on a willful refusal, rather than non cooperation with a bailiff so this one could backfire on them. Well said the bailiff, the debtor tried to run me over with their electric wheelchair, surely that is obstruction he will cry?

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

 

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes the purpose of JKs peace was to outline the practice and misunderstanding.

 

The fact is that there is no authority for EAs to punish people for not entering into a CGA, other than to take their goods for storage, or secure at premises. These are the other methods of taking control outlined in section 13 sched 12, they are not in the sale stage.

 

The next step would be for the EA to organise a method of sale and remove the goods from the place of storage this would then trigger the sale fee.

 

This is another misconception, in that it is said a debtor is entitled to demand that EA offer a CGA before he secures goods, he has no such duty. The CGA is just one of the methods of taking control the EA will select the one which is most appropriate and which safeguards the controlled goods, this is his duty to the creditor.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again there is no facility for EAs to go straight to sale on entry, they are there to take control of goods not to remove for sale. To take goods for sale the goods must first be under control, if they are not, they are not the property of the EA, they still belong to the debtor.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
I've just found this link. This seems to suggest that this council's interpretation is that the sale stage can start (thus the fee be charged) if someone doesn't sign a CGA.

 

Sale or disposal stage

 

If you:

1. Refuse to sign the Controlled Goods Agreement the enforcement agent can take your goods whilst he/she is at your property.

2. Do not pay as agreed and you have signed a Controlled Goods Agreement, the enforcement agent may enter your property, by force if necessary, to take the goods listed.

Either way, you will be charged a fixed fee of £110 plus 7.5 per cent of any balance due. You may also have to pay additional costs for the sale of your goods.

It is an offence to stop an enforcement agent from carrying out his duties.

 

 

That seems the approach of one council on a quick Google. If removed for storage they'd be charged disbursements, but this is clearly stating they can be taken for sale if a CGA is not signed, and the fee will be chargeable.

 

The council may, of course, have got it wrong.

 

Hi just been looking at this again. It seems that there is a facility to enter a controlled goods agreement at sale stage(second visit), that would explain this I think.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the EA makes a visit then they can either enter into a CGA or remove the goods if the EA thinks they may disappear form the premises. If the EA has to they may remove them for storage for sale surely? Also can the EA arrange an auction at those premises as well?

 

 

See here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/removal-and-sale-of-your-belongings-bailiffs/selling-your-belongings-bailiffs/

 

 

by advertising the goods for sale and inviting offers

inviting sealed bids

private contract

any other method the court thinks is appropriate.

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and leave a note to let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally this snippet is concerning too

 

 

"If your items don't sell

 

 

If the belongings don't sell, the bailiff may try again. However, they may decide not to continue trying to sell the items. Alternatively, if the 12-month period they have for selling the items ends and they still haven't taken steps to sell the goods, they will have to give up. If your belongings remain unsold, they will become abandoned goods. You will be able to get them back, and the bailiff will give you a notice telling you how and when you can collect them." This could be a very interesting scenario (pink)

 

 

From the above link

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and leave a note to let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
If the EA makes a visit then they can either enter into a CGA or remove the goods if the EA thinks they may disappear form the premises. If the EA has to they may remove them for storage for sale surely? Also can the EA arrange an auction at those premises as well?

 

 

See here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/removal-and-sale-of-your-belongings-bailiffs/selling-your-belongings-bailiffs/

 

 

by advertising the goods for sale and inviting offers

inviting sealed bids

private contract

any other method the court thinks is appropriate.

Well yes for storage, sale would be the next enforcemnet stage.

 

Ways of taking control

 

13(1)To take control of goods an enforcement agent must do one of the following—

(a)secure the goods on the premises on which he finds them;

(b)if he finds them on a highway, secure them on a highway, where he finds them or within a reasonable distance;

©remove them and secure them elsewhere;

(d)enter into a controlled goods agreement with the debtor.

(2)Any liability of an enforcement agent (including criminal liability) arising out of his securing goods on a highway under this paragraph is excluded to the extent that he acted with reasonable care.

(3)Regulations may make further provision about taking control in any of the ways listed in sub-paragraph (1), including provision—

(a)determining the time when control is taken;

(b)prohibiting use of any of those ways for goods by description or circumstances or both.

(4)A controlled goods agreement is an agreement under which the debtor—

(a)is permitted to retain custody of the goods,

(b)acknowledges that the enforcement agent is taking control of them, and

©agrees not to remove or dispose of them, nor to permit anyone else to, before the debt is paid.

It is all explained in the previous posts.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

A thought on the above post, the EA should obtain the best possible price for goods at auction, as such they could put a reserve on these items, therefore the goods may not sell at the first auction and they (looks like it) can take up to 12 months to finally sell the items to get the best price what are your thoughts on this please? Then can they add storage fees as well in this case and so on? If the goods still fail at another auction can they add further fees for the listings and so on?

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and leave a note to let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am concerned about your advice regarding taking control of goods, as the goods are bound once the EA has received the Warrant of Control and confirmed by BA on numerous occasions... So who is right on this?

If I have been of any help, please click on my star and leave a note to let me know, thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
A thought on the above post, the EA should obtain the best possible price for goods at auction, as such they could put a reserve on these items, therefore the goods may not sell at the first auction and they (looks like it) can take up to 12 months to finally sell the items to get the best price what are your thoughts on this please? Then can they add storage fees as well in this case and so on? If the goods still fail at another auction can they add further fees for the listings and so on?

 

Very intersting MM and perhaps a good subject for another thread.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...