Phoenix compliance/enforcement fees - PCN paid.

[picop10]

Whilst in the process of dealing with a PCN that had reached the enforcement stage,

that had become a mess due to Maidstone Council authorising Marston and Phoenix.

I quickly paid off another that i knew i needed to be paid directly using Maidstone councils online portal.

 

Unbeknown to me this had been passed on to the EA's (Phoenix in this case),

i paid on the 27th of Aug,

 

 

i have a letter that was dated the 24th of Aug that i hadn't opened or was aware of due to several reasons.

This was the first letter in the process telling me i owed £187,

£112 of which was to the council and the rest to Phoenix.

I foolishly disregarded this as i had paid and i assumed it would be updated an Phoenix were no longer necessary.

 

I then received a 2nd letter stating that i should pay now or face the enforcement stage,

i also ignored this for the same reason as the last letter.

 

Eventually someone called Miss Taylor turned up with a letter which she handed to my Mother, it said that i now owed £422

and she would return to collect goods from my mothers house,

i instantly called her and disputed this and told her i had paid and gave the date.

She denied this and called her office, she then called me back and said the amount was now £310.

 

After this i tried to get some advice from a different forum, both by asking and reading similar threads.

The advice i was given was that as i had paid during the compliance stage i was liable for the £75 but no other fees,

and that the initial warrant couldn't be used to take any goods as the original amount had been settled.

 

I understand it looks as if I've tried to get away with dealing with the Bailiffs but i happily would've paid the extra £75 to avoid this.

 

My question is, is this advice correct? Or am i liable for the amount of £310.

 

I have searched and read the forum for similar threads to mine but just wanted to make sure i got advice that was up to date

and explicitly relevant to my situation so apologies if I'm going over old ground.

 

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Edited September 29, 2015 by picop10
Wrong month.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

The forum guys should be along later with advice for you, please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

My best, HB

[picop10]

Thank you!

[Peterbard]

The short answer is that I am afraid you are.

 

Once the amount due to the court is passed to the bailiff, it becomes one with any fees which are due, the amount due becomes the amount outstanding, which is the aggregate of the amount on the order and any fees incurred to date.

 

Since you failed to pay the full amount due at compliance the £75 would have still been due on the account, so the bailiffs were entitled to make the enforcment stage call to collect it.

 

If you had paid before the debt was sent to the bailiff then no fees would be due.

 

When the bailiff called did she take control of any goods, did you sign anything ?

[picop10]

Hello and thanks for the reply.

 

Is there any obligation for the council to notify the EA's that i had paid as they instructed them?

Also its bad that the online payment system still accepted my payment and didn't re-route me.

 

Also when i contacted the council they said its out of there hands and has nothing to do with them.

 

I contacted CAB and Debtline.

The advisor at Debtline advised me to write a complaint letter to the council

stating that i would not have reached this point if they had advised Phoenix or refused my payment.

 

 

They could also have informed me that paying them would not settle the case and make me liable for further fees.

The advisor from Debtline said to inform them that i would contact the Local Government Ombudsman.

 

No she didn't and no i didn't sign anything.

She did make a note of my cars registration with a view to remove it.

Its currently parked in an offered parking compound for residents of the building i live in behind electric gates.

 

Thanks.

[Peterbard]

Just re reading your first post, did you say that you received the first letter, the one giving you 7 days to pay on the 24 th, what date did they call ?

 

They should have given you seven clear days. sorry for the misunderstanding, if the above is the case you can settle this by paying the £75. As the enforcment fee is not yet due.

 

Personally i would ring the bailiff and tell them that you have the compliance letter and it dated the 24 th, you therefore still have time to pay and do not owe the enforcement fee yet, then pay them over the phone, in the first instance. But ensure you pay the compliance stage fee so that they have no right to call it does not matter who you pay as long as you have some kind of proof of payment.

It would not matter about the EA contacting the bailiff as the payment would have been £75 short in any case.

[picop10]

Very sorry, all dates are August. Changed the original post.

[Peterbard]

Ah I thought it was a little odd, then i am afraid that you are liable for the two fees, as long as the visit was seven clear days after the original notice.The problem here is that if they do call again to remove goods for sale you will be liable for another £110 on top.

 

Unfortunately this is happening a lot, with incorrect advice being given out on various websites. It really is upto you what path you take now, if you call the bailiff and offer to make a payment now and clear the balance later they may well accept. This is a civil debt, so they cannot force entry to take goods, however they can take your car if they see it.

 

If it were me i would seek a repayment plan and start with a payment of what i could afford, others would try and wait the bailiff out and hope he had to transferred it back to the authority, it depends really on whether you can put up with the bailiff until they sent the order back .

[picop10]

Yeah i did think the original advice i received was possibly off, it appears the site i used is already being questioned by member of this forum on other threads, and i could not find anything to back up the advice.

 

The bailiff left another letter yesterday, titled notice of removal. It said that no one needs to be in for her to enter? By paying the debt have i removed her power to force entry or did she not have power to force entry anyway.

 

Due to being under the impression that her action was imminent and that i didn't want a Bailiff entering my parents home, after speaking to Debtline, TEC and some of my own research i filed a late witness statement. On the grounds i had paid the PCN. Was this a bad route to take?

 

Thanks.

[Peterbard]

BA is the expert on traffic enforcment, but i would think that since you have already paid the larger proportion of the debt, there would be an acknowledgement on your behalf and the statement you mention would not be appropriate.

When you asked the advice people for advice did you make the same mistakes regarding dates as you did on the beginning of this thread ? I am surprised at NDL as their advise is generally excellent.

[Peterbard]

They cannot force entry for a civil debt al long as they do not have a signed control of goods agreement. Also they cannot take control of goods(ie your car) from third party premisses, or the highway without a clamp.

 

If you ring them you may ask why they think they can force entry on a civil debt without a controlled goods agreement.

[picop10]

No i did not make the same mistake, that was only on this post, apologies.

 

Is a signed control of goods agreement different from the warrant issued by the council/TEC? How easy is it for them to get one? I will ring them as she seems pretty insistent that she can enter. Maybe thats just scare tactics so i peacefully allow her to enter or pay up immediately!?

 

The car is in a private car park that belongs to the management company of the building i live in, and is within private grounds

 

Just to clarify I'm not trying to get out of this or find some loophole. I just want to pay what is necessary and no more without my belongings taken.

 

Thanks

[Peterbard]

A controlled goods agreement is made between you and the bailiff and signed by both parties.

 

it lists the goods taken under control and enables the bailiff to re enter premisses which he has already been in, and take goods, if one of these is not signed they have no right ot force entry.

 

The car should be safe, how did they know it was your car ?

 

I am sure you are not trying to get out of anything it is just about trying to find the best course of action going forward.

[picop10]

 

it lists the goods taken under control and enables the bailiff to re enter premisses which he has already been in, and take goods, if one of these is not signed they have no right ot force entry.

 

 

So how would she get enter in the first place to make her list? Is her only available method of entry a peaceful one?

 

I assume she knows its my car because its the same one the debt is for and has been told by Phoenix.

 

I guess i will wait for the outcome of the Witness statement and complaint letter to the Ombudsman, then contact the Bailiff again and pay.

 

Thanks.

[Peterbard]

Yes on the first instance she would have to have gained peaceful entry.

 

I see, I was just confused because you said in post 5 that she made s note of the cars registration, it made me think that they did not already have it.

 

Its upto you of course but i dont think that thrwe avenues will make any difference , you really need to address the problem IMO.

[Bailiff Advice]

Whilst in the process of dealing with a PCN that had reached the enforcement stage,

that had become a mess due to Maidstone Council authorising Marston and Phoenix.

I quickly paid off another that i knew i needed to be paid directly using Maidstone councils online portal.

 

Unbeknown to me this had been passed on to the EA's (Phoenix in this case),

i paid on the 27th of Aug,

 

 

i have a letter that was dated the 24th of Aug that i hadn't opened or was aware of due to several reasons.

This was the first letter in the process telling me i owed £187,

£112 of which was to the council and the rest to Phoenix.

I foolishly disregarded this as i had paid and i assumed it would be updated an Phoenix were no longer necessary.

 

I then received a 2nd letter stating that i should pay now or face the enforcement stage,

i also ignored this for the same reason as the last letter.

 

Ignoring correspondence is commonplace and there is no point blaming yourself. Hindsight is the best sight in the word.

 

There is a huge misconception about whether 'bailiff fees' can still be owed if payment of the original debt is paid to the council (or the magistrate court) direct after the case has been passed to an enforcement agent and it is very disheartening indeed that the internet is still awash with such dreadful misinformation about this subject. It is for this very reason that I have been asked to write a new Stickie on this subject which will hopefully be posted on the forum later today.

 

Almost as soon as the new regulations came into effect on 6th April 2014 a small number of individuals (using a vast array of false names) starting bombarding all the local authorities in England and Wales with Freedom of Information requests asking how each council dealt with 'direct payments'. If a local authorities response confirmed that the council had properly apportioned the payment in accordance with the regulations (by splitting the payment on a 'pro rata' basis) then that council has found themselves subject to 'internal reviews' from these silly individuals. The number of FOI requests runs into many hundreds and 18 months into the new regulations,...is still ongoing. A quick search on the FOI website; What Do They Do will reveal the utter obsession of these people. It is people like these that are responsible for the forthcoming changes to Freedom of Information requests.

 

A further point is that since the new regs came into effect, the number of 'Beat the Bailiff'...'Screw the Bailiff' or 'Stop the Bailiff' websites is worrying and they all have one common trait.....seeking ways in which to avoid paying bailiff fees.

 

You have filed an Out of Time witness statement and therefore all enforcement will cease for a short period. I would be very surprised indeed if it is accepted and we will have to wait and see.

[picop10]

Dodgeball - Yeah i think it was noted just to put a bit of pressure on me. Ill ring her and get it settled or do i now have to wait for the witness statement to be returned?

 

BA - It was a similar site, DWB in this case.

 

Thank-you both for the help. I will update, when i know more.

Edited September 30, 2015 by citizenB

[Bailiff Advice]

Dodgeball - Yeah i think it was noted just to put a bit of pressure on me. Ill ring her and get it settled or do i now have to wait for the witness statement to be returned?

 

BA - It was a similar site, DWB in this case.

 

Thank-you both for the help. I will update, when i know more.

 

Good luck with the Out of Time witness statement. It will likely be rejected but who knows. If you are considering making payment right now it may be better to wait for the application to be considered.

 

PS: A copy of my 'Sticky' has now been posted up and can be viewed here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?453047-Bailiff-enforcement-Setting-up-a-payment-arrangement-and-whether-you-can-pay-the-court-or-the-council-direct(21-Viewing)-nbsp

[picop10]

Thanks. I think i will wait for the outcome and then pay them. When paying is it best to call the actaul bailiff or the company they work for?

[picop10]

Just looked at the Sticky. Very straightforward, cheers.

[Bailiff Advice]

Thanks. I think i will wait for the outcome and then pay them. When paying is it best to call the actaul bailiff or the company they work for?

 

As I have mentioned earlier, given that you have submitted an Out of Time witness statement then it is wise to wait to hear the outcome. After all, if you now paid and the OoT was to be accepted...it would be difficult to secure a refund. Please do update the thread when you hear further.

[mikeymack2002]

Have you still got a copy of the original PCN that you can post up? What was the date and time and code of the offence?

[Coughdrop]

Why do you need an offence code?

[picop10]

An update about this. The witness statement was rejected, i was not notified of this as i should've been by Maidstone as it was obviously there decision. The way i found out it was rejected was by 2 EA's turning up early to my mothers address, which is where the PCN was registered. My you siblings and mother were getting ready for the school run and my mum was walking around in her bath rope getting ready to go to work.

 

When the EA's arrived my mum opened the door slightly to speak to them as she didn't know who they were. One of them immediately put his foot in the door. My mum became quite distressed and scared and called me. I was on the M25 at this point so couldn't do anything. I told my mum to tell the EA to remove his foot from the door which he didn't. Eventually he rang me and i said if he didn't remove his foot i would call the police, he informed me that he had already called them and the police were en-route to "arrest your mum for obstructing us". At this point i was livid, my mum had her work uniform on (blue Midwifery dress) which he obviously noticed and started saying that she was a disgrace and was meant to be an upstanding member of society.

 

He continued saying the police were on their way and my mum was obviously getting upset and was late for work so i paid. I would've liked to have spoken to them in person even with the police present (who would've only been there to make sure things stayed civil and not to assist them with entry as i understand), they were incredibly smug and were provocative, then whenever i made a proportionate reply they instantly acted like i was threatening them and effectively hid behind the police and the law.

 

Im furious as in my understanding Maidstone should've notified me that they rejected my witness statement and i should've been made aware of what was going to happen next, i even enquired about this case when enquiring about another.

 

If they had informed me that it was rejected and referred to the EA i would've contacted the EA and settled. I am also obviously furious at the behaviour of the EA's.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Leakie]

Hi Picop 10

I think you have every right to be angry.

 

What he did by putting his foot in the door was not peaceful entry.

He had no right to speak to your mother in that manner.

Unfortunately even though the laws changed to make thing clearer for the debtor. The Bailiffs have not.

most are still thugs.

Well at least it is over and done with but I would consider a complaint to Marstons about there behaviour.

It will not get any where but may make you feel better.

 

Leakie