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yet another £80 cigarette dropping fine


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The offence is commited if you dropped it and didnt pick it back up. No offence is committed if you drop it, put it out, then pick it back up for the bin. Some councils though will say its committed simply by dropping it, regardless of picking it back up

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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So I have not committed an offence but I am probably better off taking a slap on the wrists because Ealing Council have decided that they would rather not offer people the opportunity to make informal appeal (and are possibly hoping that most people are to scared to go to court)?

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You shouldn't be putting cigarettes out on the ground though, they should be stubbed out on things like bins that are designed with a cigarette stub on the top, etc.

If one of those isn't around, then don't light up in the first place until there's somewhere to safely extinguish and dispose of the stub.

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jesus christ whatever next

 

A ban on smoking in public places such as parks and high streets would be a good start. It'd stop issues such as this from happening in the first place by making what you can/can't do rather more clear and at the same time keep me from getting a lungful of smoke everytime I go shopping or for a night out.

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Having a bad day?

 

I think this is a bit harsh and doesn't deal with the main issue.

 

I agree we are not here to moralise, Im not a fan of smoking and am ashamed at the amount of litter dropped on the floor BUT if Im on private property such as my house I should be entitled to drop what I want on my floor, the wind argument is pathetic.

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You shouldn't be putting cigarettes out on the ground though, they should be stubbed out on things like bins that are designed with a cigarette stub on the top, etc.

If one of those isn't around, then don't light up in the first place until there's somewhere to safely extinguish and dispose of the stub.

 

I smoke

 

I do not and have never owned a driving licence.

 

Am I able to take the higher moral ground with regard to pollution?

 

I am a 40 something year old who never knowingly leaves litter behind. I go through life trying to treat others as I would hope that they treat me.

 

I try to be fair and reasonable.

 

I went to bed at 10.30 last night, with the expectation of getting up about 5.37am. I could not sleep. I got up. I went back to bed. I kept waking up. When I eventually got out of bed ,I was freezing because my t-shirt was covered in sweat. It was so cold that I had to remove it.

 

Am I really the kind of person that you want to be criminalised?

 

I went to work today. I could not concentrate, I earned eff all . Call me a girl if you want but I am extremely upset about the situation. By and large ,I try to be the sort of person that improves the lives of other people and that has a positive contribution.

 

You are perfectly entitled to damn me because I participate in an activity that you don't like. I do not, and have not found your responses to be particularly helpful though.

 

I came to this site in the hope of receiving legal advice. I did not expect to be maligned for the sins of others.

 

I suggest that you try to explore the differences between roll up smokers and those that smoke pre-made cigarettes.

 

My experience of using websites suggests that you won't though. To that end, please feel free to assume that I deserve to become bankrupt/ go to jail and devote your time to maligning someone else.

Edited by citizenB
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I agree we are not here to moralise, Im not a fan of smoking and am ashamed at the amount of litter dropped on the floor BUT if Im on private property such as my house I should be entitled to drop what I want on my floor, the wind argument is pathetic.

 

I too do not like litter. The fact that I am accused of leaving litter does not mean that I am actually guilty or that I think discarding cigarette butts is acceptable.

 

I see the actions of the private company as being the thin edge of the wedge

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I'm a smoker of roll ups.

The op is right that there's a difference between them and normal cigarettes.

I smoke in my garden and leave the butts in the flower pots.

Every time it rains they dissolve.

Unlike normal cigarettes.

Going back to the point, if you stub your sigarette under your shoe, pick it up and put it in the bin, you will not be littering.

My advice is to be very aware of people around you, the world is now "littered" with low life ready to squeeze money out of you, more increasingly backed up by some bylaw.

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My GF rang DEFRA looking for clarity as to whether dropping a roll up and then disposing of it is an offence. They declined to answer and told her to contact the Local Authority.

 

 

My GF rang the Ealing Council. She asked them, they declined to answer. She then asked other more specific questions, such as, if sitting at a table on the high street outside a cafe that has no ashtray, is it an offence to drop a cigarette and then pick it up after you have finished your drink. The answer? It is at the discretion of the enforcement officer.

 

So I still do not if I have broken a bylaw or not, if the penalty was issued in error or not. In short it is impossible for me to make an informed decision with regard to contesting the case.

 

 

We seem to have a situation where the Ealing council are happy to let private contractors (who have a vested interest in handing out fines) decide what is and isn't legal.

 

 

This is Kafka-esque.

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There is zero legal requirement to give your personal details to anyone, be it a hobby bobby, traffic warden, fully fledged legit copper, or anyone in uniform.

 

UNLESS you have committed a 'Criminal offence', so these 'private' companies who Lord it over you in your local high streets with clip board in hand and their body cameras cannot do anything unless you give them your details, yes they may call the old bill, but do you seriously think in this day & age a copper is going to turn up to get your details because you dropped a fag butt or apple core?

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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But with the act of dropping the ciggy butt you have commited an offence, a bye law so you have to give your details if requested by an enforcement officer

 

Thats what I thought, it certainly applies to train bye laws, its a further criminal offence to not supply your name.

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Appeals processes are voluntary. Councils do not have to offer informal appeals. See the DEFRA link in my long post. I suspect that in the issue of parking/driving offences, they only allow then because of the potential public backlash. Regarding litter, if you can convince the public that you are pursuing hardened criminals, there will be less opposition

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If any civil penalty is imposed by a Government agency then there has to be an independent appeals process. No man can be sanctioned unless prescribed by law

 

Article 7 ECHR

 

According to DEFRA

 

"If the authority is to offer an ‘informal’ appeals process (there is no legal requirement for one), it should set out the grounds when an appeal will be considered and how it will be decided."

 

AFAIK the only way of appealing is to go to court.

 

Given that the maximum fine is £2500 and a criminal record, and the fact that neither the government (DEFRA) or the LA (Ealing council) seem to be willing to provide definitions of "litter", I would imagine that most people will just pay up. It may well be the case that the majority of people handed notices are content that they are "guilty", I still believe that I gave no reason to assume that I had intended to act inappropriately. I would definitely have engaged in an "informal" appeals process, but I am denied the opportunity. What is the point of allowing impartial 3rd parties to stand in the way of money for old rope?

 

The only party that stands to gain here is the independent security firm (one which has received negative press coverage in the past). Ealing will potentially end up receiving a lot of negative will, and many innocent people will suffer both financially and emotionally.

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Yes, going to court is an appeals process as it is a civil penalty order with the power of the court to enforce

 

You either pay the penalty or dispute it in court, the same as a ticket from the old bill being drunk on a saturday night

Edited by obiter dictum
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So the penalty noticed turned up.

 

I must confess that I am tad confused by a number of inconsistencies.

 

To begin with, I am told that I have 14 days to pay from the date of the letter. There is no date on the letter! It arrived 8 days after I was issued the notice. Today is now 11 days since it was issued

 

Adittionally, the cover letter says:

 

A Fixed Penalty Notice is issued as an alternative to being prosecuted for the offence, therefore by paying such a notice you discharge your liability for the offence. Alternatively, you have the right not to pay the notice and defend yourself in the Magistrates Court. Payment is required within 14 days from the date of this letter to indicate your intentions.

 

But the FPN print out says:

 

If you wish to make representations relating to the issue of this Fixed Penalty you can write in to Environmental Enforcement, Perceval House, Ealing Council, 14 - 16 Uxbridge Road, Ealing VV5 2HL quoting the reference number.

No legal proceeding will be initiated until a response has been sent to you. Once a response has been sent you will have 7 days to pay the fixed penalty

 

So the letter suggests that I only have two options- pay up or go to court. However the FPN seems to suggest something different, a third option.

 

Does it mean that I can ask for the video footage? I am still convinced that I did not move away from the roll up and my defence remains that I had every intention of disposing of it appropriately. IF the footage shows me leaving it I will pay up immediately.

 

Am I allowed to ask them for a copy of their by-laws? To date I am unable to find anything on their site that says that dropping a cigarette to extinguish it and then disposing of it is an offence. As mentioned in an earlier post, Ealing's telephone support refuses to give direct answers. The FPN mentions the Environmental Protection Act (1990) and Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act (2005) rather than pointing to specific by-laws, so which takes precedent? The law handed down by DEFRA or Ealing Council's interpretation of it?

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I would appeal as stated in the fpn.

Placing a cigarette on the floor to extinguish it and then pick it up for later disposal, surely doesn't qualify as littering.

That could be your defence.

Don't expect cooperation from Ealing coucil.

They will not give you the footage even if you sar them.

They will use the template: "Video footage is deleted after 14 days".

As it's been 11 days already, even if you sar them today, they will look at the footage and if it shows anything that they don't like they will destroy it.

Cash cow springs to mind.

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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/part/3/crossheading/offence-of-dropping-litter

 

Video evidence cannot be deleted if used in a prosecution

 

 

And i will say you will face a hefty penalty if convicted in a magistrates court

 

As well as the penalty ticket you will face a seperate court fine when convicted (Trial) of anything between £150=£1000 as a criminal court charge, mandatory victim surcharge. These are on top of normal prosecution costs

 

You may well be innoncent but faced with paying an Average £500 if convicted, who will now chance a magistrates court to prove guilt of innocence. It is denyng access to a fair justice system and encouraging to plead guilty even if innocent

Edited by obiter dictum
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Hi, just my 2 pence worth. I have read a lot of this thread but not all so apologies if I am duplicating information.

 

IMHO it is definitely worth acquiring a copy of, or demanding the right to see the video footage. A similar scenario befell a smoker I know at a bus stop near Margate, North Kent. The official involved approached the 'offender' claiming to have video footage of her cigarette being extinguished and left on the payment. The 'offender' pointed out that the cigarette end was nowhere to be seen so how could he have evidence of this. Reminiscent to earlier in the post, the official told the 'offender' that it had blown away and he was issuing a ticket. The 'offender' then handed the official a pocket sized cigarette end container that she carries with her so as not to litter the pavement with them. It was warm with the new cigarette end inside.

 

First, these officials are paid cash 'bonuses' to issue tickets. This incentive is clearly too tempting for some as my case proves and may prove in this instance.

 

Second, I am a smoker, albeit two an evening in my back garden, but if I were to take it up publicly again, I would carry one of these cigarette end containers about with me and most smokers would see this as a reasonable thing to do; whether or not they smoke roll-ups.

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